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12/8/2004
06:42:28
Subject: Jacob Steiner
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My partner and I have a couple of his father's violins, one of which has what looks like a label with "Jacob Steiner Anno 1840" inside it.
The instrument isn't in brilliant condition (the strings are missing and the bow is totally messy!)
Could you give us any idea whether this is a genuine Steiner and an idea of it's value if any?
Thank you!


Graham Welsh Host
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13/8/2004
00:47:50
RE: Jacob Steiner
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By all means bring it to me for an appraisal. My contact details are on the contact page of my site. I have a small charge for this service.
Thanks
Graham


Marj Bailey
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17/8/2004
12:52:13
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Family still have a Steiner violin which was my grandfather's - he was playing 1890-1930. Name embossed in the stain on the back of the violin. Paper inside violin has name of Jacob (?) Steiner. Could it be a cheap immitation, mass produced and purveyed as the real thing? Has good quality sound and is in good condition.


shara dillon
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04/2/2005
09:55:17
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Dear sirs I have an original Jacobus Stainer that I inherited from a relative that died and was passed to me. what is its worth?


shanda
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15/2/2005
16:32:55
RE: Jacob Steiner
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I have a 1665 fiddle on the inside is signed by Jacob Steiner !! Its in perfect condition and the case is , an old coffin looking box but 1665 is the year and I am intereasted in saling it but dont no how much its worth or where to begin finding info on how much its worth ncan anyone help me or is anyone interasted ?



Tiffany Dillon
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21/2/2005
05:53:42
RE: Jacobus Stainer
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This is the label inside our jacobus stainer violin. We believe that this is a numbered edition. Do you have an idea on the value?Jacobus Stainer in Absam. prope Oenipontum fecit 17


daniel salaz
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22/3/2005
16:53:08
RE: Jacobus Stainer
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I have a jacobus stainer violin the label inside reads Jacobus Stainer in Absam
prope Oenipontum 1665 I would like any information you can give me on this violin
thank you


Lyndon Johann Taylor
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29/3/2005
21:19:32
RE: Jacob Steiner
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By way of introduction, my name is Lyndon Taylor and I am a clavichord maker and a violin restoration journeyman? in southern California USA.
My input on Jacob Stainer; Stainer was the German Straduarius, so to speak, just as 99%+ of the instruments labeled Straduarius are fake, the same is true of Stainer labels, from my understanding far fewer genuine Stainers are in existence than Strad's work, Stainer probably didn't have as many people working for him as Straduarius, and he had a much more troubledd life, so the chances of coming across a genuine Stainer are exceedingly rare. However most of the great 18th century German makers either copied Stainer or were influenced by him. The average Stainer copy has a somewhat better reputation than the average strad copy in the trade however the ones stamped STAINER under the button can be trully dissapointing in tone as I recently found out restoring one.
I did have the fortunate chance to work on a possibly genuine Stainer around 1990. My boss thought it was a copy because the label was printed, and most original Stainers have hand written labels as hard to forge as a signature. However my research indicated that some genuine Stainers have the printed labels, however it is thought the labels may have been added to the genuine instruments later in the 18th or 19th century.
All I can say is that the instrument was SPECTACULAR in every respect so unlike any copy I had seen. The arching was totally different from the factory copies stamped Stainer, which exaggerate the flatness of the arching reminding me of a boat. The carving of the scroll, the purfling, f holes etc. were definetly of the highest caliber I had seen. When I removed the top I discovered the most meticulous, careful, clean and all most obsessive workmanship I have ever seen inside a violin. Not only where the corner block inset with the c liners, but the liners where inset into the top and bottom blocks as well as both sides of the corner blocks. Not even Straduarius went to this much trouble,
In short if an instrument doesn't completely blow you away as regard its quality and fineness of construction and workmanship, it cannot possibly be a Straduarius or genuine Stainer.
However just because a Stainer is not genuine does not make it worthless, if it has a genuine neck scroll graft or a shorter baroque length original neck it could easily be one of countless fine to mediocre copies made in the 18th century, possibly worth thousands, but remember these copies look like genuine Stainers more than the stamped Stainer factory violins which are a caricature of Stainer at best.








jerry reitman
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09/4/2005
12:46:20
RE: Jacobus Stainer
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My father, a violinist, came to the U.S. around 1920, and brought with him a violin which has a label, as follows:

jacobus stainer in absam
made in czeckoslovakia 1672
it is both printed and written by hand.

I know there are many copies of his violin, but can anyone tell me h ow to authenticate this violin ? Any help will be most appreciated.
Jerry Reitman


Gordon
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09/4/2005
23:34:46
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Jerry,

I think you have answered your own question here, or you would have done if you had cared to research the history of Czechoslovakia, and looked for Absam, near Innsbrook on a map of Austria.

Czechoslovakia did not exist before the end of the 1914-18 war (actually formed in 1920) and was formed as a nation on the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. It ceased to become a nation in 1990, after their 'Velvet Revolution' when they threw out the Russian occupiers.

So, either your father came to the US a while after 1920 and brought with him a band new fiddle, or the fiddle was bought in the US some time after he arrived. Either way, it is 1920 at the very earliest.

Regards,
Gordon


Suzanne
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05/5/2005
14:14:15
RE: Jacob Stainer
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I have a violin with a label inside that reads, "Jacobus Stainer, in Abfam. prope Oenipontum, 1676." It also has Stainer written on the back near the neck. I would like to know if this violin is an original or if it is a copy. How can I tell? I would also like to know how much this violin might be worth. This violin has been in my family for at least 200 years.

Thanks for any help anyone can offer me.

Suzanne


Lyndon J Taylor
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05/5/2005
19:32:55
RE: Jacob Steiner
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In reply; not worth much as "Stainer" violins stamped STAINER are the cheapest factory production and definetly were not being made 200 yrs ago. about50-200GBP in best condition, I would guess. Stainer never stamped his violins.


Gordon
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05/5/2005
20:03:54
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Suzanne,

Yes, I agree with Lyndon. You have a German trade fiddle dating from c.1900 or maybe a few years either side. No way is it 200 years old. Often, I have come across instances where folks genuinely believe that they have a very old, genuine instrument as they can trace it back in the family for 250 yrs or so. They are very deflated when they realise that someone in the family in the dim and distant past must have sold the original and replaced it with a factory made substitute to keep up appearances, probably because they needed the money. Often, also, 'tall stories' abound, especially concerning violins, where little bits of 'historical provenance' (and decades of age) are added every time it passes down to another family member, until suddenly it is a priceless original worth millions. These boards abound with such claims, if you search for them.

With Stainer violins, the norn is a hand-written ticket. There are authenticated examples of his work with printed tickets, but there is some speculation as to whether the printed version was put there by Stainer, or whether it was added later by the person who authenticated it (i.e. the label doesn't tell a lie about the instrument, just that it is not an original to the instrument).

It is rather amusing that whilst diamonds have been around for billions of years, nobody tries to make items of jewellery out to be older than they are, whilst violins in particular attract 'age enhancement' perhaps as no other objects do, even though they are relatively easy to date in terms of style, workmanship, and (using dendrochronology) it is now simple to tell when the trees that made the instrument were growing and therefore when they were cut. This method was used to determine that the Stradiuari violin 'Le Messie' in the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford, was genuine, in that they proved it is made from trees felled when Stradiuari was alive, and was not a fine copy made by V B Vuillaume in the 1800's.

The only way you can know for sure is to take your violin along to a luthier or appraisor, and have them look at it... within seconds they will tell you whether you have a copy, or whether it is worth further investigation.

Kindest regards,
Gordon


Suzanne
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11/5/2005
16:31:46
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Thanks to both Lyndon and Gordon for the response. I will see if I can find a luthier or appraisor to take my violin to. I am only curious to know how much my fiddle is worth. It is a nice insturment and I have no desire to replace it or sell it at this time. I play it and like it a lot and those who play better than me like it too. So whether it's a copy or not I still like it. The fact that it is a family heirloom makes it very special to me too.

Thanks again for the help.

Suzanne


Gordon Burns
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11/5/2005
21:07:11
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Suzanne,

So long as you realise that it has not been in your family for as long as it is claimed, and therefore has less 'heirloom' status, and you are happy with it, then all is well.

Kindest regards,
Gordon


Gene
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18/5/2005
13:44:49
RE: Jacob Steiner
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I have a violin with a label inside that reads, Jakobus Stainer, in Abfam. prope Oenipontum, 1765. There are no markings on the outside of the violin. I would like to know if this violin is an original or a copy. I would also like to know how much this violin might be worth. The violin is in good shape and it is in the orginal case. Thanks for any help anyone can offer me.
Gene



Gordon
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18/5/2005
20:20:36
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Gene,

Stainer had been dead a considerable time when he made your violin... therefore, I guess it was made by someone else.

Regards,
Gordon


Lyndsay
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22/5/2005
21:16:44
RE: Jacob Steiner
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I have a Jakobus Stainer violin that was given to me by my grandmother. It was my grandfathers violin, and he had it since he was about 18yrs old, it was supposed to have come from either his old teacher or friend, who had had it for many years, how accurate that is no-one is sure as all concerned are now dead. There is a printed label on the inside which simply says the name, but at either side there is what appears to be a trade mark symbol which seems to be a large C a smaller J, and what could be a hook or upsidedown pike,or at a stretch an L. This is all in a cricle which says "trade mark" and gives a registration code. I very much doubt that it means much, but this is a beautiful instrument which is unusually curved and rounded both at the front and back. Icould do with having it insured properly more for senimenal reasons than anything, but I have always wondered about it's histoy.

Lyndsay


JAN ROACH
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01/6/2005
17:56:18
RE: Jacob Steiner
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I HAVE THE SAME PROMBLEM AS THE OTHERS EXCEPT I WAS TOLD MY VIOLIN IS A MIX BETWEEN STRADUARIUS AND STAINER.MINE HAS A STAMP INSIDE JACOBUS IN ABSAM PROPE OENIPONTUM 1665.COPY MAYBE, MAYBE NOT WHO KNOWS NOT ME. IF YOU HAVE A SHOP OR STORE IN THE UNITED STATES? I LIVE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. SOUTH OF LAS ANGLES ABOUT 200 MILES. LOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING FROM YOU JAN ROACH jeanetroa@aol.com


Lyndon J Taylor
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01/6/2005
20:09:45
RE: Jacob Steiner
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200 miles south of Los angeles would put you in a region of southern california known as Mexico, however if you can make it to LA I would reccomend Tom Metzler, in Glendale for appraisals, he charges $50 for a verbal appraisal and you have to make an appointment ahead of time as he is very busy. However if your violin is stamped Stainer on the back near where the neck attaches(the button) you have the cheap factory type and the value would be in the $0-$500 range , I wouldn't waste time looking for an appraiser, However if it is not stamped Stainer on the back there are some valuable copies made with the fake label especially 1700s original copies, Some of the best German Makers like the Klotz family sometimes used fake Stainer Labels. sincerely, Lyndon J Taylor violinljt@hotmail.com in sunny southern California


Lyndsay
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03/6/2005
06:14:25
RE: Jacob Steiner
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I have noticed that on my violin, that on the back where there is the little nobbly bit at the top of the body(please excuse description) there appears to be some sort of initials very faintly scratched on, I would almost say that they were put on before the varnish. I have had this violin for nearly 30 years and I have only just noticed this myself, there is no burnt on stamp, just a very simple label as I described previously.


JAN ROACH
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03/6/2005
08:35:49
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Lyndon J Taylor,where in california can I contact you? And may I have quote as to what you charge to set a value of my violin. I just need a ball park amount for now. I know it probley is not a real Steiner but it is nice to dream that it is. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME JAN ROACH NILAND CA. 92257 jeanetroa@aol.com


james r. allen
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03/6/2005
13:06:39
RE: Jacob Steiner
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i inherited steiner violin from a lady many years back. the label inside has the following information......jacobus steiner in absam
prope oeni pontum 1723

on the back top of the violin is the work stainer. most likely a copy of an original. how to know if it is authintic or copy. looks like spruce front. maple sides and split back. violin is in good condition. has good sound.can e mail photos if you are interested. thank you for your time.. jim allen


Gordon
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03/6/2005
13:09:45
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi James,

If it is branded with a stamp on the back, then it is a fake. None of the genuine ones had such a brand mark.

Regards,
Gordon


JAN ROACH
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03/6/2005
18:49:47
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Lyndon J Taylor, please advise if TOM METZLER OF GLENDALE,CA. HAS A E-MAIL ADDRESS. THANKS JAN ROACH


Joe Castiglione
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23/6/2005
02:27:55
RE: Jacob Steiner
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A friend of mine has an old violin in very good condition with the exception of the strings. which need to be replaced. On the inside it is marked Czechoslovakia copy of Stainer. Does it have any monetary values. Thank you


Shayne Cole
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23/6/2005
12:47:48
RE: Jacob Steiner
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I have an "old" violin with the label marked Jacobus Stainer ...... 1669!!! It is hand written and not a paper label. It has no other stamp on it either! All I know about it is that my Great Grandfather purchased it for £200 in 1932! He was a preacher of the Welsh Baptist Chapel and a distinguished figure in his congragation. My Grandfather has said that "It is very, very old and original"? I have visited a few internet sites and none of them have FAQs stating that the label was hand written and most definately not on paper! What are the chances that there could still be an original undiscovered Jacobus Stainer in the world, and the chances that I could own it!


Gordon
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23/6/2005
13:04:04
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Joe...

Depends how it sounds! Basicaly, it's a Czech copy, but some are really quite nice. My advice is to have it appraised.

Hi Shayne,

The possibility is very slim. Stainer violins are either without ticket or have a hand-written ticket. As far as I am aware, he didn't write on the wood itself.

If it is genuine, then your G Grandfather paid quite a bit over the odds in 1932. If it is a fake, then he was done and dusted big time!

So, if you think you have an undiscovered Stainer, then make it into a discovered Stainer! Any appraisor will confirm, or dash your dreams, within seconds of looking at it.

Regards,
Gordon


Lyndon J Taylor
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23/6/2005
13:36:30
RE: Jacob Steiner
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By not on paper do you mean written on the wood, or are you refering to parchment or some other material, 200GBP in 1932 is the kind of price someone might have aquired a genuine Stainer or an expensive fraud, much more likely is that you have a high quality copy from the 1700s, these can easily be worth 5000GBP and up.This is the kind of thing you won't be able to tell by sending pictures as the good 1700s copies look so much like the originals, one thing you can check is the sounding length of the strings from nut to bridge(when lined up with the notches on the fholes) if you have the original neck this should be up to 12mm less than 330mm, the modern standard. Unless of course your instrument has a neck sroll graft; a visible join between the scroll(where the pegs are) and the neck so that you can see they are two pieces of wood, not one. If you have a graft then you are usually dealing with a pre 1830 instrument, however remember that Stainer was the German Stradivari and that everyone in Germany in the 1700s copied Stainer just like the French and later the Germans copied Stradivari. Just taking it to any appraisor is not going to settle things necesarily, most modern shops have never worked on a genuine Stainer, as they are very rare, and not every violin shop can be completely trusted, however if they think it is genuine, then your world is your oyster so to speak. sincerely, Lyndon J Taylor violinljt@hotmail.com


jan roach
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12/7/2005
08:27:57
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Iam on vaction now ,but will call or e mail you when Iget home. THANKS FOR YOR REPLY, JAN


Sarah, jamie Ellis
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14/7/2005
15:26:29
RE: Jacob Stainer
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I have a "Jacob Stainer" violin, it has a label inside that reads "Jacobus Stainer, in Absam, prope
Oenipontum 1696." But, it also has "conservatory violin" engraved on the back of the scroll. there is the stainer name engraved on the back of the violin below the neck. There is a mahagony and medium oak color throughout the entire violin. It is a beautiful violin, we are just wondering who could have copied this violin, where and when it could have been originated. Also, what could the value of something like this be?
Thank you,
Sarah


Graham Welsh Host
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14/7/2005
19:54:18
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Let's all try to be careful how many times we add messages....3 deleted duplicates on this chain alone. Just refresh and check for your message. Works fine with some care.
Thanks
Graham Welsh Host


sarah
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17/8/2005
11:58:19
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hello,
I have had this violin for 35 years. When I used to play it the sound was awesome. The label inside states;

Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope Ocnipontum 17

Could you tell me anything about it please?
Truely,
Sarah


Gordon
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17/8/2005
12:18:52
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Sarah,

I'm unable to tell you anything about your violin. The mistake most people here make is that they assume that their violin can be seen, handled, played and truly assessed by others, whereas this of course is not the case over the internet.

All we can hope to provide, is some information about the information given.

On the information you have provided, I can tell you that you have a copy of a Jacob Stainer, made in a factory whose workforce couldn't be bothered to even find out the dates of birth or death or our 'Master'! Stainer died in 1683 so couldn't possibly have made an instrument in 17-anything.

So having established it is a copy, we can move on by saying it has 99% probability that it was made in Germany, 1880-1900.

This being accepted, it is probably of arching that represents only a 'characature' of Stainer's work, being far too rapidly raised from the edges and over-emphasised in the flat area along the 'long arch'. This is what the Germans did... mostly they got it wrong, not just slightly, but monumentally!

That's about all anyone will be able to tell you about your fiddle without actually seeing it.

If you need an appraisal, then I suggest you contact Graham, your site host, on graham@theviolinman.co.uk and he will let you know how to proceed through his online appraisal service (please see his online store for details).

Warmest regards,
Gordon


Rodney Elder
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20/8/2005
01:03:58
RE: Jacob Steiner
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I just picked up a stainer copy that the lable inside says, Jacobus stainer made in Czecho=slowakla.
The wood seams to be in good shape. the varnish was kind of bubbly in some places but polished out real nice.
Also the tuning pegs are small like maybe for a 1/2or3/4 and the finger board is about 4mm. lower at the end. this might be due to the high belly?
Would like any information anyone might have concerning this violin

thanks
Rodney


Gordon
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20/8/2005
01:12:48
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Rodney,

It's not possible to give you any information about your particular violin, apart from what's already been reported on Stainer copies, and Czechoslovak instruments.

Regarding the pegs - it is quite common for Czech fiddles to have small diameter/small format pegs. Although the fingerboard may be 4mm lower at the end (due to the 'ridge' along the top of Stainer copies) the projected height at the bridge should be correct. If not, the neck will need resetting.

Regards,
Gordon


Rodney
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20/8/2005
23:45:27
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Thanks for the reply Gordon. not a bad sounding ol fiddle when i got it strung up, but discovered that the button has seperated from the back.
The neck is not creeping down because the strings are holding there tune but would like to have it corrected. any imput on having that done?

thanks
Rodney




Gordon
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21/8/2005
04:31:55
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Rodney,

We are talking a button graft here, which is quite expensive to have done. Realistically, on a fiddle of such a low value, the repair is likely to cost you more than the value of the finished article... i.e. the fiddle is probably now beyond economic repair, as they say.

Regards,
Gordon


Bernadine Duke
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23/8/2005
04:15:58
Re: Stradivarius
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I have two old violins that belonged to my father. One violin has inscribed on the inside "Antonius Stradivarius Cremonenlis - Faciebat Anno 17, there is a circle also that has inscribed "AS" with a cross in the middle of the initials. The other violin has inscribed on the inside "Stradivarius Model 1674, Made By Friederick Geisler Leipsig. Waiting for your reply.



ivette
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23/8/2005
05:17:31
RE: Jacob Steiner
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plaese if you know a dealer in new york city ho could take a look at my violin and maybe buy it please answer me as soon as posible, i am from mexico and my grantparents from brooklyn it was theirs, ill be there the 28,29 of august.


Patti Brown
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23/8/2005
07:44:04
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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We have inherited a violin with the label: Nicolaus Amatus, fecit in Cremona, 1625 Germany.
Can you tell us anything about this?
thanks,
Patti


Gordon
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23/8/2005
07:49:10
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Bernadine,

As you may have seen on this site (hundreds of times) the first one is a Strad copy, probably German turn of the last century.

The second one is more interesting, as it has a 'name' to it. However, he is not a famous maker, and his name does not feature in either Henley or Jalovec. This leaves us with it being either a hand made violin by a maker who produced relatively few instruments, or the 'name' doesn't exist at all and is the figment of the imagination of the factory that used it to give some desirability to their instruments. This practice was heavily used by the German factories, and often Italian sounding names were used to give the appearance it is an Italian instrument.

If you take it along to an appraisor or luthier, they'll tell you at a glace whether the Geisler is either hand made, or factory made.

Regards,
Gordon


Gordon
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23/8/2005
07:55:36
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Patti,

It's only possible to tell you that it dates from well into the 20th century (post 1918, probably, since before then, the word Saxony or Sachsen would have been used, not Germany). The rest of the story you can find here on the forum by doing a search.

(The puzzling thing, to me, is why you posted a question about the name Amati on a board that concerns itself with the name Stainer).

If you'd like a full appraisal, then please take up Graham's offer by visiting his online store and checking out his online appraisal service.

Regards,
Gordon


Steven Brown
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30/8/2005
09:22:42
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Sir,I am interested to find your site,I have a violin I purchased several years ago at a music shop the price I genuinely no longer recollect.As it had such an unusual scroll,a beautifully carved lion's head,obviously the work of a genuine craftsman,I decided to do some research and learned that this was one of the trade marks of one Jacob Steiner(Stainer?)an Austrian maker of the 17th century.It seemed odd to me however and looked as if the neck had been grafted onto a different body at sometime,I now understand that this repair may not be a different neck and body repair but what is referred to as a button graft(quite an expensive repair in itself)There is no stamp on the instrument nor any label inside but the wood does appear quite aged.I am surprised not to have read any comments about ornate scrolls either on original Steiners or copies on the site.Do you have any good advice for me regarding this instrument.Is it likely to be of any significant value is it worthwhile having it appraised etc.In anticipation of a reply sincerely Steven Brown(please forward a reply to my e-m address it will be appreciated.)


Lyndon J Taylor
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30/8/2005
11:37:49
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Lions head violins might have started with Stainer, but they didn't end there, There are far more copies with lions head scrolls often on really cheap trade instruments, the quality of the carving of the Lions head varies from exceptional like Stainer to very crude on the cheapest instruments, Lions head violins are regularly going on ebay for $300-$500, I have one I bought at an antique store for $25, but the violin is so cheap its not worth fixing, even the cheap lions head scrolls still look quite impressive to the untrained eye, however the violin that goes with them can be complete junk, to an expert the quality of carving of the scroll can say a lot about the violin as well, sincerely Lyndon J Taylor violinljt@hotmail.com


Gordon
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30/8/2005
12:21:22
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi,

I agree wholeheartedly with Lyndon... with the slight amendment that Lion Head scrolls went a little further into history than Stainer, but not too far.

The Schuster factory in Markneukirchen (originally founded by Michael Schuster in 1803) turned out many thousands of these cheap and nasty-looking 'copies' from 1890 to well into the 1900's.

The good ones are very different from the factory ones.

Perhaps you could post some photos for us to look at?

Regards,
Gordon


Steven Brown
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01/9/2005
10:12:26
RE: Jacob Steiner
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I offer my thanks to both Gordon and Lyndon for their response and comments,both obviously far more knowledgable than me on violin matters :o).Hopefully the lion's head scroll on my instrument will not turn out to be one of the cheap and nasties mentioned,I seem to recollect it compared quite favourably with photos of Steiner scrolls in our local reference library.I have just bought a new camera so I will try and get some photos up in due course I may also seek some opinions on the quality of the scroll carving at Forsyths in Manchester.Thanks again for responding.


Kathy
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03/9/2005
22:19:32
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Good day. I just want to send a question. what is the difference between Steiner´s copies handwritten labelled inside of the violin,(Jacobus Steiner Prope ...) and copies stating that states'it is a copy of Jacobus Steiner'

thank you


Gordon Burns
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04/9/2005
00:19:25
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Stainer's hand-written tickets were sometimes in a nice neat calligraphy, but often in quite scrawly writing. The copies are block printed (his name was STAINER, not STEINER).

Regards,
Gordon


kathy
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04/9/2005
04:21:12
RE: Jacob Steiner
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gprdon thanks for your mesage
althought i didnt mean this:
my question was if there is any difference in quaility and dating between copies of stainer whose label says: jacobus stainer in Absam prope oenipontum and those copies whose label says simply Copie of Jacobus Stainer.

are they from the same years and are of the same quality?thanks


kathy
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04/9/2005
04:21:12
RE: Jacob Steiner
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gprdon thanks for your mesage
althought i didnt mean this:
my question was if there is any difference in quaility and dating between copies of stainer whose label says: jacobus stainer in Absam prope oenipontum and those copies whose label says simply Copie of Jacobus Stainer.

are they from the same years and are of the same quality?thanks


Gordon Burns
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04/9/2005
10:45:21
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Oh, OK...

Original Stainer violins date from the 17th Century (he died 1683).

Copies are copies, and it matters not what it states on the ticket. Earlier German copies (c.1880-1900) tended not to mention that it was a copy, so would have you believe it may be original, whilst French and later German copies (post 1900) will show 'copie de' or similar, and maybe the country of origin (to enable export to the US, to satisfy the 'McArthur' Tariff Act, which banned imports of any item not stating its country of origin).

The tickets that used the wording of the original hand-written tickets are more likely to be German, c.1880-1900. Those simply stating 'Copy of Jacobus Stainer' are more 'honest' and probably date from inside the 20th Century.

I hope this is what you need.

Warmest regards,
Gordon


Lyndsay Hider
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04/9/2005
21:08:07
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on my earlier postings?


Gordon Burns
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05/9/2005
10:27:06
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Lindsay,

I have never come across this factory's trademark, so can't help I'm afraid.

Regards,
Gordon


kathy
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06/9/2005
08:32:33
Hi, Gordon, Lyndon
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i have been gifted with an antike violin, maybe from 1800s, althought it shows an old crackín near the tail piece. about 10 cm tall.
how much expensive may result if i take the violin to repair the cracking to a violinbuilder?







kathy
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06/9/2005
08:32:34
Hi, Gordon, Lyndon
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i have been gifted with an antike violin, maybe from 1800s, althought it shows an old crackín near the tail piece. about 10 cm tall.
how much expensive may result if i take the violin to repair the cracking to a violinbuilder?







kathy
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06/9/2005
08:34:48
Hi, Gordon, Lyndon
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i have been gifted with an antike violin, maybe from 1800s, althought it shows an old crackín near the tail piece. about 10 cm tall.
how much expensive may result if i take the violin to repair the cracking to a violinbuilder?







Gordon Burns
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06/9/2005
10:47:42
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Kathy,

Try not to duplicate post. If you don't see your post, hold down SHIFT and press REFRESH and it forces a reload of the page so your post can be seen.

Regarding cracks, it very much depends on several factors...

1) Soundpost cracks and bass-bar cracks take much more work to rectify properly, often requiring the underside of the belly (or back, if applicable) to be patched. This is not a quick and easy process and requires a great deal of skill to complete properly... therefore, the process is very expensive.

2) Saddle cracks (like the one you are probably describing), wing cracks and non-vital belly cracks are simpler and more straightforward to deal with, requiring the belly to be removed, the crack cleaned and properly glued (surfaces correctly aligned) and cleated from behind, followed by the crack repair being 'sealed' with varnish on the outside, to prevent ingress of dirt. A well repaired crack should be invisibe from the outside, or almost so.

Many repairers and restorers charge by the cm length of crack to be repaired, or have a set charge for a 'patch'. Whilst I realise that this is probably necessary in a 'business' environment, I do not hold with assessing cost to length of crack. Since some cracks take a long time (in term of man-hours) to repair, whilst others are quite simply done, I think that any charging of cost per cm length is ok as an estimate of cost, but I always make sure that my customers realise that I charge by time taken to complete a job, and thus any estimation of final cost can only be an estimation, and often it can be more, or less than my estimation. Also, there is the 'unknown' quantity, of what one finds when the belly has been taken off... things that need seeing to that were not apparent from the initial inspection.

The only way to find out what a repair is likely to cost is to take your violin to a repairer/restorer, who should be quite happy to give you a free estimate of the total cost. Sorry I can't be any more accurate than that.

Regards,
Gordon


Tony
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12/9/2005
11:22:50
Stainer violin
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Gordon / Lyndon,

Gentlemen, first of all thanks for making me about 110% smarter regarding violins. You've been a big help.

Secondly, I am researching my mother's violin. She has owned it since the 1950's and can trace it's owners back into the 1800's. Now seeing that this is Australia, I can only guess that the instrument found it's way over from Europe sometime in the 19 century.

It has the ubiquitous: Jacobus Stainer in Absom prope Oenipontum fecit 16..... label on the inside and this is printed not handwritten . I am perplexed as to why it does not have the last two numbers in the date. The violin has no stamping on it whatsoever.(A good thing I believe)

We are both excited about the prospect of it being a real Stainer but also realise that the chances of this are slim. If I am correct Stainer violins are like opinions, everybody has got one!

My questions are:
1) Did Stainer ever use mother of pearl anywhere on his violins?
2) Was it normal for the tuning pegs to be quite small? and
3) Do you know of any existing original Stainer violins in Australia.

Any help would be appreciated.

Regards

Tony




Gordon Burns
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12/9/2005
11:38:42
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Hi Tony,

I really like it when someone here faces reality.

To answer your questions...
1) No
2) Not particularly... 'normal sized', probably.
3) No

Yes, you have a copy. But if it sounds nice, then enjoy it.

Regards,
Gordon


apprentice rose
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16/9/2005
13:32:00
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
I am an apprentice luthier, professional violinist, and violin collector. I recently purchased a Stainer copy for $8, intending to use it as a repair practice "victim". I am quite familiar with Stainer copies (already own one), but this one was a bit unusual. Stamped Stainer on the back with a printed Stainer label (last two digits by hand, etc. etc.), it gives the appearance of age--1880s?--wear marks on bridge area, inner wood very dark, varnish worn and chipped, peg holes very large. It appears older than any of my other seven old violins.

Here is the strange part: it looks nothing like a Stainer, but is one beautiful instrument. The arch is gradual and not excessive, and the purfling and f-holes show apparent French influence. The scroll is handcarved, and very nicely done. The grain on top shows the "bear claw" effect, and is unusually tight and uniform. Back grain is a very fine-curl maple in two pieces. Varnish is dark brown. I separated the neck from the body and found a penciled scribble on the neck block. It is not legible.

When I showed it to my boss, a luthier, he was quite excited. He said I'd found something remarkable and he was nervous about us doing more work on it until we had more information.

It's obviously not an original, not even remotely possible, but where can I find more information and PICTURES of Stainer copies? Workmanship and materials on this violin are unusually good, and I intend to do it full justice in repairing.

Thank you,

Apprentice Rose

P.S. Personally I think it looks like my Lupot copy, in body style.


Gordon Burns
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16/9/2005
15:30:28
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Hi Rose,

Welcome to the calling!

The fact is, most German copies of Stainers are nothing short of characatures of his arching model, giving a pot-bellied appearance, and rising from the edgework far too rapidly. If you can, try to lay hands on a genuine Stainer, and you'll see immediately what I mean.

With this in mind, you could well be looking at a nice French Stainer copy, following much closer the original arching model.

I'd try 'googling' for pics of a real Stainer (there's quite a few on the Web). I once had one here, and photographed it unmercilessly, but this was in the days before digital cameras and I have just tried to find the old photos to scan in, but failed miserably! I have no idea where I put them.

The one thing people say about a true Stainer, and that's if you look through one f-hole, you can see clear daylight through the other one, in spite of the bass bar.

Kindest regards,
Gordon


apprentice rose
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16/9/2005
16:39:55
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Dear Gordon,

Thank you for your prompt and very informative reply about my mystery Stainer. Your comment about the "potbelly" of most copies was quite illuminating--you're right, my Czech copy (ca. 1921 or after)has a very exaggerated arch. The belly of this one is quite deep, but very gradual arching. It has quite a "presence" if that makes sense...the parts are put together well. I noticed that initially, but was nonetheless quite surprised at my boss's reaction.
I had become too used to finding bad German Strad and Stainer copies to expect miracles in the attic--or a little antique shop, in this case. Although, after finding two glorious concert violins this way, it's stupid of me to be so careless!!

I was a bit confused about seeing daylight through the f-holes. Could you explain further, if you don't mind? Not that I expect a true Stainer, but just curious.

It's the "intangibles" about the violin that give me the impression of age....I've seen so many from the late 1800s/early 1900s, and this just "feels" older. My boss says 1880, I'm guessing about 30-50 yrs. earlier. Perhaps we are both off, but not newer than 1880.

This is part of what makes "the calling" fun! I love the violin hunt with a passion, and the post-hunt repair is even better.The "glory work" comes when an old and well-built violin sings again. I appreciate your help very much. I know you have answered far too many Stainer queries! Thank you for your patience.

Apprentice Rose


apprentice rose
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16/9/2005
16:44:36
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Oh, I forgot to ask if you had any insight on the meaning of the scribble on the block? My boss was baffled because doesn't it often indicate mass-produced parts? But it appears handmade and is very nicely done.




Gordon Burns
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16/9/2005
16:52:06
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Hi Rose,

If you hold the violin horizontally, and peer through the bass f-hole, you should be able to see the treble f-hole clearly, to be able to see right through the belly horizontally, if you understand me.

The scribble on the block does tend to indicate a trade fiddle, but on the other hand, as you'll know, many luthiers scribble things on the blocks and the upper parts of the insides of the plates (for instance, on mine, you'll often find the resonant frequencies of the plates in Eigenmodes #2 and #5!)

Kind regards,
Gordon




Erik
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 Email

17/10/2005
23:52:44
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
I'm doing a research on a violin labelled: Dominicus Bussano modelé nella Contrada di Santa Margarita
al Segno della Sirena, Milano.
19__

Last 2 digits of the date missing. There's also a signia that says B S & L. So far I haven't found anything, any info would be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure if I have posted here before, if I did, my apologies.
pictures can be seen here:
http://www.geocities.com/musicproductions2000/pics/pictures.html


Alix
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 Email

05/11/2005
23:24:07
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
I have a borrowed violin from my grandfather's sister. The label inside reade "Jacobus Stainer in Abfam prope Oenipontum 1934". I know that Abfam is supposed to be Absam, but the 3rd letter is in the shape of an f but it has no strike through. The 34 is hand written in pencil.
The violin does not however have STAINER on the back of the violin.
Many people have commented on the sound of the violin, and it seems to hardly ever go out of tune.
I was told recently that it looked like a Stainer and could be a copy.

I would really like to know whether it is a copy or not.

Regards,

Alix


Gordon M Burns
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05/11/2005
23:41:51
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
As Stainer had been dead for around 250 years by 1934, I guess it must be a copy.

Gordon


Alix
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08/11/2005
22:41:58
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Sorry that was a typo 1734 its supposed to be, but even then Steiner was dead wasn't he?


Gordon M Burns
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09/11/2005
02:24:56
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Yes, he died 1683 (according to most sources). Certainly the commemorative plaque on his house states 1683.

Gordon


Alix
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11/11/2005
23:06:16
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Ok thanks so i guess its a copy, still thats cool.


Taouirsa jamil
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15/11/2005
10:52:36
RE: Jacob Steiner
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je voudrais svp connaitre le record des ventes aux encheres atteint par un violon jacobus stainer.merci infiniment


Gordon M Burns
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15/11/2005
11:01:10
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
veuillez visiter www.maestronet.com, où vous pouvez voir des prix d'enchère. Merci

Gordon


Becky S.
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03/2/2006
17:30:55
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
We recently bought what we believe to be a 1638 Jacobus Stainer.Inside it reads Jacobus Stainer in abfam prope oenipontum 16.These are the only letters on this instrument.I also has a case with it. How do we find out.



Gordon M Burns
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03/2/2006
23:22:03
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
By taking it to an expert. Same advice to everyone. It's the only way.

Gordon


Becky S.
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04/2/2006
07:11:13
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Obviously I already knew that. I live in the U.S. in the state of Tennessee.I need to know how to contact someone that I can take it to.



Gordon M Burns
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04/2/2006
12:22:13
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Well, since we are in the UK, I think that you are immeasurably better placed at discovering this information. Tried Yellow Pages?


Lyndon J Taylor
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04/2/2006
19:50:47
RE: Jacob Steiner
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I googlled THe American Federation of violin and bow makers, and for tennesee I came up with Charles McCook in Johnson City tele 423-952-0837 email mccook@preferred.com sincerely Lyndon J Taylor violinljt@hotmail.com


Steve Pacholok
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 Email

11/2/2006
08:11:47
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
We have an old violin of my deceased Grandad
which says "Copie de Jacobus Steiner in Absom prope Oenipontum,1662. Does that mean anything to anyone and is it worth anything. Oh yeah, he was born about 1900 so that might help narrow the era.
Thanks in advance, Steve Pacholok
Stepachol@aol.com or Stepachol@verizon.net


Gordon M Burns
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11/2/2006
12:51:37
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Did you get the spelling of STAINER correct when you spelled it STEINER?

It was made in France, or more likely Germany, probably after 1880 but prior to c.1895 (after c.1891 it would specify the country of origin to comply with US import laws, unless it was destined for export to another country).

It will be a typical factory made fiddle from this period, not worth a great deal, even if in great condition and in playing order, properly set up.

Regards,
Gordon


Ringo Hufft
Guest
 Email

20/2/2006
05:40:46
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
I have in my possession a violon with the following written inside.
Jacobus Antonius
Hand Moda
Germany
Hornsteiner reproduction
Stradivarius

Please let me know more about this instrument and it's value.
Thank you


Steve
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 Email

20/2/2006
08:27:08
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
You seem to have a real hotch potch there 2 makers surnames Hornsteiner(Mathias),Stradavarius and 2 christian names Antonius and Jacobus and Hand Moda? a mixture of English and Latin!All quite puzzling!Personally I have never heard of the like of it before :o)


Gordon M Burns
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20/2/2006
09:55:32
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Hi Steve,

It's absolutely amazing to me just what a load of rubbish some factories put on their tickets, just to fool the unsuspecting masses into thinking they are buying something that's actually worth something!

The mention of Germany places it c.1900 or later.

If you ask me, it is neither Jacobus, Antonius, Hornsteiner, Stradiuari, or hand made! (or even hand moda!)

:o)

Gordon


Steve
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 Email

20/2/2006
11:16:09
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Without wishing to disillusion the owner too much I must say I am inclined to agree with Gordon that the writing inside the instrument is simply a fiddly bit of nonesense.However whatever its import I am sure it will neither enhance nor detract from the sound of the instrument and surely a violin is built to be played rather than simply admired for the sake of the name of its builder;in conclusion I am sure the fiddle will have its own sweet spot when properly set up ...most do :o)


Graham Welsh
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20/2/2006
21:25:54
RE: Jacob Steiner
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PLEASE NOW USE THE NEW FORUM. MESSAGES HERE ARE NO LONGER SEEN BY ME AND THE MAJORITY OF VISITORS. FIND THE NEW BOARD HERE.

It's easy to use just register your details, remembering to add your location please.


william
Guest
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04/3/2006
07:51:26
RE: Jacob Steiner
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Message:
Hi, I know nothing of violins. I have a stainer it reads: Jacobus Stainer ex absam prope Oenipontum feelt Cremona, it is a printed label.
I dont see a date but barely visible on the other side (inside as well) I see a 5. There are no markings on the outside, the body is in fair shape and the strings and bridges look newer.
The case is lined w/red velvet? Tere are 2 bows-
no strings on them, one reads F.H. superior, the other seems older,shorter, no markings.
There is a aluminum cylinder w/I believe is rosin
says "Peg Composition" W.E.Hill&Sons london england.



Margaret
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25/3/2006
23:43:34
RE: Steiner
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We have a violin which my daughter got recently and we would like to know more about it.Inside is a label with the following on it - Steiner Model Andreas Guarnerius fecit Cremona Sub Tituto Santa Terisia -1683


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