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Tony Bown
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20/5/2004
10:27:27
Subject: Nicolaus Amatus
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I have just bought a violin in a charity shop with a label inside bearing the inscription:
Nicolaus Amatus Anno 1653.

Any info please. Thanks, Tony.


Oase erkamp
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10/6/2004
04:41:00
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I also have a violin, I've had it for quite some time, I got it from an old friend of my mother. It says Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1685. Does anybody know how you can find out if it is a real Nicolaus Amatus violin or a replica? Any info, please send to Snowcat@hazelden.co.za
Thank you, Oase.


Matheus
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02/7/2004
06:17:27
Nicolaus Amatus Cremona 1645
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I need information on a violin " Nicolaus Amatus Cremone 1645 ". Can anybody help me?


DENISE SPEARIN
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17/7/2004
04:52:13
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I ALSO HAVE A NICOLAUS AMATUS CREMONE.

THE NAME BERTTIOLINI ALSO APPEARS ALONG WITH THIS ADDITIONAL INSCRIPTION.

HIERONYMI FILII FICET 1651 TORONTO R.S. WILLIAMS

WALEY ROYCE & CO LTD - TORONTO & WININPEG

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THIS
VIOLOIN?? THANK YOU IN ADVANCE


alastair
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17/7/2004
20:35:02
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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It will be a copy of a violin by a very old maker, Nicolas Amati (Amatus is a Latinised version of his name). He made violins in an Italian town called Cremona. Bertolini is a made-up name applied to French violins made in and around the town of Mirecourt in the early 20th, century. It is quite common for Italian-sounding names to be used on violins not made in Italy because Italian violins have the greatest prestige. The Toronto names are possibly repairers or importers, or a violin shop - I don't know. Anyway, what you have is a copy of an old violin made much more recently.


Sally Coomer
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22/7/2004
02:07:10
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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My Father has a violin he bought in England during World War II. It is stamped inside: Nicolaus Amatus in Cremora, fecit 1645. How do I know if it is the real thing? Thankyou for any information you can provide.


Paul Preece
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25/7/2004
04:28:23
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I have a voilin with a label stating
"Nicolaus Amatus Cremonen Hieronymi
Fil. ac Antonij Nepos Fecit 1630"
Are you able to tell me anything about it?

Thanks


Jani
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19/9/2004
19:04:10
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hello All!

I have a Nicolaus Amatus violin in Cremona.(1650)
The violin is Original,but not a best state...
My question is :what is value?
Please contact me:floydrose@freemail.hu,if you have any info!!
Very thanks!


VICTOR PALUMBO
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05/10/2004
23:38:35
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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tengo un violin nicolaus amatus-
la inscripcion dentro del violin dice:
"NICOLAUS AMATUS FECIT IN CREMONA 16"
me gustaria saber en cuanto estaria avaluado aproximadamente.
muchas gracias, espero una respuesta.
Victor Palumbo (Minas-Uruguay)


karen tynan
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25/10/2004
11:18:17
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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my father just bought an old nicolaus amatus,fecit violin cremona italy 1617, germany

inside case says carl fischer 6810 4th avenue, new york city

has 2 bows. both dark wood with very dark spots of grain on them one with an ivory piece on,,other looks like teak on,,,,,,,they look very old too;;;;;;;

any information my father would appreciate.


Ostin Stryjak
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05/11/2004
11:23:05
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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There are miriads of violin assembly lines out there that make / made thousands of COPIES of the Amati Style violin and pasted a label inside that Says :

Nicolaus Amatus violin in Cremona 16XX - this is the TYPE of violin.

Most of them are not worth a lot (below $500 PRETTY WELL MOST OF THEM) - depending on who and what condition.

If they look like they were made in 1650 it generally means they were just not looked after.


Lucía
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23/11/2004
01:38:57
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hello, I have a Nicolaus Amatus 1630. The wood of the back has a seal of fire that says "AMATI"

Do you know something about it?

Thank you.


Jasna
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26/12/2004
02:25:51
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi,
I have the violin from my great grandfater.
In the violin is the mark:

Nicolaus Amatus in Cremona 16,
and the label with the name of :
Hermann Trapp, Wildstein b. Eger
(bohemia)Faciebat Anno 18

I would like to know the value of the violin, and If someone know more about it.
Pls. contact me on the E.mail adress: another_sun@yahoo.com

Thank You in advance


shirley schultz
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10/1/2005
05:50:32
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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i bought a nicaluas violin 1645 from an elderly lady, and wondered what it would sell for.,


pestman
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10/1/2005
12:13:19
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I have a violin it has copy nicolaus amati czecho-slowaki have you ever heard of it that is the correct spelling
thankyou


Vanco Andonov
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11/1/2005
18:35:02
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Dear Graham,
I have one oroginal violin di Nicolaus Amatus from 1596-1648 4/4
Please send my more information
I want price for this violin


Naty
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14/1/2005
12:51:28
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi
i have one violin from my grand fater

in the violin is mark:

Nicolaus Amatus
made in germany

i would like to know the value of the violin

contact me :natalimark230@hotmail.com

thank you
gracias...


Pat Conrad
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18/1/2005
03:17:15
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I have a violin with this inside:

Line 1. Nicolaus Amarus Cremone
Line 2. Hievonymi Filli Fecit
Line 3. Made in Germany

Any ideas on what I have or where to research?


Gordon
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24/1/2005
12:30:18
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Pat, and others

No need of research (it can be so tiring, just to find out that you have little).

Nicolo Amati (Nicolaus, in Latin) was the son of Girolamo (Hieromymus in Latin).

So basically, you have a German copy of an Amati.

It is likely to have been made between 1900 and 1930.

It is worth what anybody will give you for it.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Gordon



Gordon
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24/1/2005
12:43:03
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
PEOPLE, PLEASE!!!!!

1) Anything that states it was made in a country, is a fake or a copy.

2) Such fakes and copies are worth little.

3) All 'REAL' Amatis are probably now known about.

4) Most 'Amatis' come from Germany or Bohemia (now Czech Republic).

5) Please don't contact me with claims that you have a 'real' one... you don't!

Regards,

Gordon


ana
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03/2/2005
08:07:32
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Please, if you can help me. Authentication and Appraisal of Violins... Where can I get that for Amati and Stradivari? (somewhere in Italy perhaps???)


Gordon
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03/2/2005
09:30:14
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Ana,

Most luthiers and decent violin shops worldwide will give you an idea as to the origin of a violin - no need to go to Italy.

A proper appraisal will cost you money (sometimes a lot of money). I have lost count of the 'hopefuls' who have beaten a trail to my door with the 'genuine article' that they have found in the loft, or that has been in the family since 1700 at the latest, only to find immediately on seeing it that it is a German or otherwise central European factory trade fiddle made after 1900 and worth very little... often not worth restoring, as the cost involved would exceed the end value.

Regards,

Gordon




Thaneia Anastopoulou
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28/2/2005
22:50:25
Amatus
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I have a voilin with a label stating
" Amatus Feent Cremona 1645"
Are you able to tell me anything about it?



Gordon
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01/3/2005
00:40:46
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Thaneia,

On the details you give, can you really expect to find out more about your instrument?

OK, for a start, the word Feent will probably be the word Fecit, unless the obviously fake label was printed by someone with a sense of humour.

In 1645, the only Amati still working was Nicolo (undoubtedly the best of the family, before or after) as he was the only one who survived the Great Plague (his father Girolomo 1 died of the plague in 1630, an elderly man of 69 yrs). Nicolo's son, Girolomo 2, was yet to be born (in 1649).

By 1645, ALL Nicolo Amati's tickets ran either...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nicolaus Amatus Cremonensis
faciebat anno 1645
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

or

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nicolaus Amatus Cremone
Heironymi filii, fecit An. 1651
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The earlier one was used to around 1650 and the later one thereafter. Interestingly, on later tickets he returned to the habit of indicating that he was the son of Girolomo (Heironymi filii).

Apart from this, I cannot help... It's rather like my saying "I have a car with a Rolls Royce badge on it. what can you tell me about it?" Of course, the car is really a Ford that somebody has badged as a Rolls Royce! See where I'm coming from, here?

Basically, if I take my car to an automotive engineer, he'll tell me at a glance whether I have a real Rolls Royce, or just a rusty old Ford... in the same way, any luthier or violin appraisor will tell you what you have, so my advice to you is to take it along to have it looked at (but don't hold out much hope of it being a Rolls Royce!)

Regards,
Gordon


Gordon
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04/3/2005
12:07:56
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Dean,

Only posters who ask stupid questions, or where the answer is already staring them in the face try patience.

OK, The Laberte-Humbert firm joined forces with the firm of Fourier-Magnie in 1925 and took the name as you describe. If genuine, all their instruments were marked "Lutherie d'Art, L.F.M."

So, if it is 'genuine', it means that it dates certainly from no earlier than 1925. If a fake (and I used fake, rather than copy, as it seems ridiculous to make a copy of a copy) it could date from much later.

Again, if 'genuine'... it can be taken for granted that a French factory violin from Mirecourt is generally far better than an equivalent from a German factory, both in terms of build and tonal quality.

The fact that most French factories actually stated that they made it shows that they have no shame in claiming it is theirs, whilst conversely, most German factory copies bear no such identifiable place of origin (if you are lucky, it merely sates "Made in Germany").

As to value, it will depend entirely on present condition, and if playable, what it sounds like in terms of tonal quality.

I hope this helps.

Kindest regards,
Gordon


Chris.
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07/3/2005
05:29:59
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi,

I have a violin which has a label stating Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1636. The label is printed but the last two digits of the date are hand written in ink. There is no other label indicating the true manufacturer. The case is present and has the handle at the top of the lid, crude locks and hinges. The inside is lined with felt and backed with cardboard. I suspect this is a copy, but am just as intreged by the construction of the case.Were fakes or copies of the violin extended to the style of case also?


Gordon
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07/3/2005
05:57:59
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Chris,

There were 4 Amatis called Nicolo, and two of them were alive in 1636.

Nicolo 2, was the son of Antonio. Tickets did not run as you describe.

Nicolo 3, the great one, whose tickets are described above, and again do not match the one on your instrument.

That leaves us with your instrument bearing a ticket that merely refers to the 'model'... it is unlikely to be a fake, but a rather average to less than average factory fiddle from Germany. Typically, these fiddles were supplied with poor quality cases, often made from compressed cardboard, similar to papier-mache, and lined in rough looking felt or baise.

If I were to copy an old master with a view to passing it off as an original (i.e. a fake) then I would choose a case that either was a genuinely old case (as old as the instrument purported to be), but since very few original cases survive with their original contents (i.e. the fiddle) I would choose a really modern one. Cases seldom survive long, and that is particularly true of really old ones. Poorly made cases simply fall apart, old coffin cases are attacked by woodworm and thrown away, etc.

The last thing I would do with either a genuine old fiddle, or this hyperthetical 'fake' that I need to find a case for, is to put them into a crudely made cardboard case.

I have never come across a 'faked' case, but to be fair, I have not been looking for one... maybe some of you out there have?

Kindest regards,

Gordon


Marsha
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07/3/2005
16:03:56
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I have a violin with the Nicolaus Amatus label (obviously a fake) made in france for the HS Williams & Sons Co limited that I recently got from my Grandfather. I am quite taken with it and want to know if it is still playable as it does look quite well used.

If I were to take it professional would it be worth it too have them look at it and could it still be used, keeping in mind I am just a beginner.


Gordon
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07/3/2005
19:11:11
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Dear Marsha,

I cannot think of a nicer instrument than a French copy of an Amati for a beginner to cut their teeth on, so to speak. Bear in mind that to have it restored to playing condition may cost a little, but weigh that against the cost of a new violin made in some Chinese factory, and worth next to nothing in comparison. OK, the new violin will look nice, but will never be anything much better than a toy, whilst you probably have something that will last you many years and have the ability to grow with you as you become more able as a player.

Add to this, the fact that most 'learners' progress faster on better instruments, and I think you can see where I'm coming from.

The best of luck yo you,

Gordon


Kim
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24/4/2005
10:57:42
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hello Mr. Gordon

I have a copy of a Nicolaus Amati, made in Germany violin, not dated. I know it's not the real thing. It's probably worth very little in fact. I'm in the process of restoring this thing myself. My son has grown attached to it for some reason. It smells bad and needs some finishing work. It as the #15 carved under the tail piece and it doesn't look straight to me. It has nice flaming on ribs and has a one piece back, neck is in excellent condition. The cut outs on the sides do not look symetricial to me. It this just a bad copy or does the real thing resemble this shape. I have the original case, it is made out of a hard paper or cardboard and felt lined, looks like it doesn't offer much protection. Your opinion matters to me. Thank you.

Kim


Gordon
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24/4/2005
11:11:00
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Kim,

Nicolo Amati was a great Cremonese master, and the very best of that family of makers. He is the one who had Stradiuari as an apprentice and taught him his art. As far as symmetry is concerned, you can bet your life that an original would be almost exactly so.

When you say it doesn't look straight, am I to take it that the neck is not lying dead centre? If this is the case, it will need a neck reset, so be prepared for some very fine and highly skilled woodworking here. I am loath to write down here how a neck is taken out, simply for fear that the unknowing may try it for themselves and end up ruining a perfectly good violin. If you really want to know how it's done, drop me an email (with some photos, perhaps) and I'll explain in my reply.

The case is worthless as a means of protecting your instrument. When you've restored it, treat it to a hard suspension case to keep it safe from knocks and woodworm.

Kindest regards,

Gordon


Kim
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24/4/2005
12:28:18
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Thank you so much Mr. Gordon for your informative and quick response. As far as the neck, it appears to me it is not lying dead centre. Would that affect the sound much. It's fully intact. Any comment on the #15 carved under the tail piece. It's not an attractive thing by far, I guess we are captivated by the history behind it. Where has it been? Who played it? My son now 12, playing since 5, said "it will sing again". With patience and help like yours, he's right.

Many thanks again,
Kim


Gordon
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24/4/2005
14:09:44
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi again Kim,

If the neck is not central it definitely needs seeing to. A misaligned neck causes very uneven stresses on the body when string tension is applied (it could be so severe as to rip the neck out of its mortice). Even slightly out and it will affect the position the strings lay above the fingerboard so making it more difficult to play. Add to this, that the G string will no longer be correctly positioned above the bass bar, which will affect the lower notes, and you can see that being off centre has many implications. Email me and I'll tell you how to take it out. However, you must be honest with yourself, for once out you must work to thousandths of an inch accuracy to reset it, so if you are not up to speed with woodworking skills you should entrust this part to a competent restorer.

The number under the tailpiece has no significance at all. The tailpiece is a consumable item and may not even be original to the violin if it is old. If you mean that the number is carved into the belly wood under where the tailpiece sits, then this has no significance, either, apart from suggesting that it was once a loan instrument, belonging to a school or orchestra. I hope it is NOT carved into the violin wood itself, and that you mean the actual tailpiece.

As to where it's been and who played it - you'll probably never know the answer to either question.

Yes, Kim, it could sing again, but it will take lots of patience, skill, knowhow, and the use of correct materials to make that happen (even the glue must be old-fashioned animal hide glue - no modern glues should ever be used on a violin). If you are not up to it, then please seek professional advice and consider having a luthier do the job for you... after all, that's what we are trained to do.

Kindest regards,
Gordon


misty freeman
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22/5/2005
08:06:22
old violin
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i have a GIOVAN PAOLO MAGGINI BREFEIA MADE IN 1636 IN GERMANY WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH IT IS WORTH IT IS IN REAL GOOD CONDICTION

THANK YOU
MISTY


Gordon
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22/5/2005
11:43:46
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Misty,

It depends who made it. Probably the two biggest factories turning out Maggini copies was Louis Lowendal and Alfred Moritz. To be quite honest, there is little to choose between them - they are both pretty decent compared with most other factory fiddles.

Of course, you realise it is a copy (Maggini never lived in Germany, and died in the Great Plague in 1623).

Regards,
Gordon


Gordon
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22/5/2005
12:01:25
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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sorry, mistype... Maggini died 1632, not 1623. Apologies.

Gordon


Buck
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23/5/2005
16:04:14
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Sir,
My wife's mother passed on to my wife a violin with a label inside stating "Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1635", similar to others about which many people have asked. I am curious as to whether the date (with the "35" hand-written" is truly indicative of the age. This violin belonged to my wife's grandfather, who died in 1929. It has been restored as a gift for my son, and we wanted to be able to give him a little history. Thank you in advance.


Gordon
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24/5/2005
01:19:56
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Buck,

If you had it restored by a restorer who knows anything about his subjest, and I suspect you did, he'd have told you if he thought it to be a genuine Amati. I take it that he didn't, so I am assuming that he restored an Amati copy, probably a German trade violin from c. 1880-1900.

Since all the factories were pushing out similar fiddles with facsimile tickets, it is mostly impossible to distinguish one from another, apart from those 'honest' copies whose tickets also bore the factory's trade mark or name, in addition to the model which they were supposed to represent.

Your son has probably got himself a good fiddle to 'cut his teeth on' so to speak, and he should get many years of pleasure from it before needing to 'upgrade' to a better instrument. If it is a particularly good one (and there are some excellent ones, more by accident than intent), it could see him through the rest of his life.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Gordon


Mary
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01/6/2005
03:53:43
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I have an old violin which was in the attic it belongd to my late husbands uncle inside the violin is marked Nicolaus Amatus fecit Cremona 1630 can you tell me something about this violin maker and if the violin itself is genuine or fake

mary


Gordon
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01/6/2005
04:16:12
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Mary,

Nicolo Amati (1596-1684) was the greatest artist of that family of violin makers, and the best violin maker in Italy at the time, and therefore probably the best in the world. He was the maker to whom Antonio Stradiuari was apprenticed, between c 1666-1672.

You can find all you need to know about him on the internet (google Nicolo Amati).

Now to the violin... in all probablility it is a fake, or more accurately a copy, made in their thousands in the late 1800's to the 1920's in Germany.

If you take it along to someone who knows violins (a luthier, dealer, collector, connoisseur, or established auction house) they will tell you in an instant whether you have an original, or whether it is worthy of further investigation.

Regards,
Gordon


Darlene
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10/6/2005
14:15:45
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I have a Nicolaus Amatus Fecit in Cremona 16 Germany violin with the notes, flats, sharps on the neck like it was a learning violin at one time. Can you tell me if it is worth anything?


Gordon
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10/6/2005
14:20:43
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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From the 20th Century, Not worth much, unless you can find a collector with a fetish for such things.

Regards,
Gordon


maria
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23/6/2005
18:26:41
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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NECESITO INFORMACION SOBRE PRECIO DE VIOLIN NICOLAUS AMATUS CREMONEN HIERONYMI FIT AC ANTONIJ NEPOS FECIT 1672.-
GRACIAS


Trudy
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29/6/2005
11:20:07
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I almost hate to ask. I've read the entire page, so please don't think I'm being lazy about it, but I have a violin. I know nothing of the origins other than it came out of an estate sale in St. Louis, MO. The tag on the inside says

"Nicolaus Amatus Cremonen Hieronymi
Fil. ac Antonij Nepos Fecit 1653" (The 53 is different than the rest of the information)

I don't know much about them. It appears to be old, which is not really my concern. I bought it because it's beautiful.

Can you tell me anything about it? *hides in corner*


Gordon
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29/6/2005
12:58:46
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Trudy,

Come out of that corner, immediately! :o)

It really is quite impossible to tell you anything without actually seeing the instrument. It will be a copy of an Amati, as by far the greatest majority of them are. The chances of it being other than a copy are 50% of the sqaure root of zero, I'm afraid. It will be another anonymous copy, made in an anonymous German fiddle factory, probably somewhere between c1880 and 1920.

The main thing is that you bought it because it is beautiful, so my advice to you is that should just enjoy it.

Kind regards,
Gordon


Trudy
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29/6/2005
13:42:58
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Thank you for letting me out of the corner. It was getting dark there, and I kept hearing someone sing "Oh the wind and rain" (Please someone get the joke).

Thanks for the info. Sometime, if you're not too sick of looking at violins, I'd love to send you a picture. It's truly incredible! (Well, it could use some fixing up as I just got it) And it sounds like it's crying!

. . . But the only tune the fiddle would play. . .


Trudy
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30/6/2005
11:10:32
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I realize that you're probably close to putting me back into the corner, or quite rudely directing me to the infinate wisdom of Rev. Google, but I have another question.

Please don't mistake me for one of those silly people who comes on here thinking they've found an original somehow either overlooked or misplaced for the last 300 years.

But were there others (other than the German fiddle factories, I mean) that made copies of this man's violins? I am not generally ignorant, but in this case I must ask mercy. The area where the pegs are seems to have been hollowed by hand. There are imperfections that I wouldn't think of coming out of a factory.

Again, I apologize, but I've become terribly interested. Sort of like the idea of knowing where it came from. What it's been doing and for how long. Sorry, I'm a bit of a moron it seems.

Trudy


Gordon
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30/6/2005
12:28:09
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Trudy,

Very close to being shown that corner again! :o)

OK, the great masters of the past have been copied unmercilessly by makers of all nationalities. Even today, the makers training at the Newark School in the UK are taught to work to very exacting standards, and their model is the Cessol Stradiuari (Golden Period, 1716). Basically, if you can make a Strad copy, and make it well, you can make just around anything.

Many makers base their own models on those of the masters. Personally, I make violins based on the 'Betts' Stradiuari and the 'Cannon' Guarneri 'del Gesu'.

There is a difference between basing a model upon, copying, and faking...

Based upon - the plans and drawings are probably taken from the original instrument, but may have slight adjustments made to the taste of the individual maker. Finished to a high 'new' standard and varnished to look like a modern instrument, basically. It will bear the correct maker's ticket, possibly stating that it is a copy of...

Copied - again, made to the drawings of the original, only this time it is made to look like the original looks now, complete with worn areas, scroll graft, button crown, and probably expertly antiqued in appearance, both the varnish patina and the scratches that appear on the original. It will probaly bear a facsimile of the original maker's ticket, plus one of the copyist. A good copyinst will mark the inside of the instrument (by branding, for example) to ensure that it cannot be passed off as an original.

Faked - as per Copied, above, but bearing a good facsimile label, no other maker's ticket or marking to hint that it is not by the original master, and dishonestly passed off to be an original.

Normally, trade violins of the late 19th century - early 20th century were based on models of the past masters. The French and Bohemian makers have traditionally placed the country of origin on the facsimile ticket (in the case of the French, the words 'Copie de' often appear above the wording of the facsimile ticket. The Germans had no such scruples, in the main part, and left them appearing like the original ticket. Some were 'antiqued' and I have no doubt at all that they were done like this in many instances to be passed off as genuine to an unknowing or unsuspecting public.

Evidence of this 'dishonesty' is seen in the fact that many German trade fiddles have facsimile tickets bearing the words 'Copie de', thereby making them look like French copies, and hence more desirable than German trade fiddles.

In (I think) 1881 or thereabouts, the US passed a law stating that all imported goods had to bear the country of origin. I think that the idea slowly dawned on the Germans that if they didn't say on the ticket where it came from, then it couldn't be exported to the US... they started adding 'Made in Saxony' or Made in Germany' to their tickets. It is a great shame that this law was not introduced around 20 years earlier, and an even greater shame that it was introduced only by the US, and not the rest of the western world... had it been, then most of the posts on these boards would not be necessary, although you still find the odd punter saying "the label says it was made in Germany [or Czechoslovakia]. Is it genuine?" It beggars belief and I despare at the logic of those who post such stupid things, and expect others to do their research for them, instead of doing a little research into the history of Europe for a start! I mean to say, if I am given a violin to look at that purports to have been made in Brescia in 1630, then I would probably suspect that it was a fake, because the Great Plague was ravishing the town at this time and the last thing I'd have been doing is making violins!

Warmest regards,
Gordon



Isabel
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05/8/2005
03:43:36
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Gordon, I am from Ecuador and I have an old violin that have a Nicolaus Amatus Cremonen Hieronymi Fil. at Antonij Nepos, Fecit 1673 ticket. The father of my grandpa brong her of Italy in 1900 approximate. Can you tell me if you thing that is another copy of those that you tell? It have a wood case. Maybe can you send me a model of the original ticket that put inside of these and tell me if it is a copy wich is teh price in the market.
Thanks.


Gordon
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05/8/2005
09:50:02
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Isabel,

And hello from Equador. I have a trainee luthier friend Victor Ortiz, from Equador (currently living in Madrid, Spain, and studying at the International Violin Making School at Newark, UK).

Your violin label is correct (the 'at' should be 'ac' so you possibly misread it). If you are unable to trace its history bafore 1900, it is more than likely to be a copy. Nicolo Amati violins have been VERY heavily copied and faked (he was probably the best violin maker in the world in his time). From speaking to Voctor, I know that it will be difficult to find an expert locally to take a look at your violin, but if you think that it is not a copy of c.1880, then you should try to have it seen by such an expert. This probably will not be easy for you, and I do not know where you could start looking.

The owner of this site, Graham Welsh, has a service of appraisal by photography, so if you would like to email him (go to the 'CONTACT' link at the top of this page) he will tell you what you need to do to have him appraise it by photographs.

I wish you luck, and my kindest regards,
Gordon


han
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08/8/2005
20:26:25
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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This is the label of the cello:

"Nicolaus Amatus Hieronimi Vi ad Antoni nepos fecit 1657"

and certification by Joseph Védral (The Hague) in 1928 saying the cello is of the "above mentioned master." Is this sufficient proof that this is a real Nicolo Amati cello? Do you know anything about Joseph Védral (The Hague) and its authoritativeness in certifying instruments? Thanks so much.


Lyndon J Taylor
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08/8/2005
20:48:47
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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This sounds very interesting, it still may not be a genuine Nicolo Amati, but someone thought it was so its probably not a circa 1900 reproduction, Im assuming ther is evidence that the instrument is older than 1800, ie a neck scroll graft, heel graft or shorter baroque neck, if so even if it is not Amati its still valuable, are you trying to sell the instrument or just get a valuation, finding an honest straightforward appraiser might not be as easy as it seems depending where you are, some appraisers have never seen a genuine Nicolo Amati, and keep in mind that the 1928 appraiser might be a hack that doesn't know what he's talking about, however this is more information than you can get over the internet, so you may really have something treat it carefully, A genuine Nicolo Amati cell would be worth up to a million US depending on condition, sincerly, Lyndon J Taylor


Colin
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27/8/2005
06:04:25
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Just to clarify, the act referred to in Gordon's message of 30/6 was the McKinley Tariff Act, passed in 1890. It required goods imported to the US to be labeled with the name of the country of origin. In 1921 the law was amended to require the words "Made in" wherever. So if you have a violin like mine, with one label reading "Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 16__" and another reading "Germany," you can be reasonably sure it was made in Germany and imported to the US before 1921 and probably after 1890.

I recall reading somewhere that many of these violins were sold through mail-order operations such as the Sears-Roebuck catalog, which was nearly ubiquitous in turn-of-the-century middle-class homes, particularly rural ones. This is unsupported by any evidence I know of, but it would explain the wide distribution of these violins and how they tend to end up in people's attics with no information about where they came from.


Gordon
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27/8/2005
06:35:51
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Thanks for the clarification, Colin. I had read about it in the dim and distant past and knew such a law existed, but somehow thought it was in the early 1880's.

I have read many times about these fiddles being available on 'easy terms' through the Sears catalogue. We had similar catalogues here in the UK.

Once again, many thanks, and kind regards,
Gordon


Douglas Garcia
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29/8/2005
01:06:05
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I need some information about a Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1640 violin I have it here in Brazil because my grandfather came from Tcheqoslovaquia in World war 2, thanks


Gordon
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29/8/2005
02:07:31
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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If he came from Czechoslovakia, he probably brought a pre-war Czech copy Amati with him.

Gordon


axel
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30/8/2005
10:45:07
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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hola como estan nesecito saber cuanto sale un violin de nicolas amitus de 1621 porque quiero comprarme uno, grasias por tu informasion DIOS te bendiga chau


joe
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02/9/2005
07:17:11
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I've got a 'found in closet at grandma's house' violin with a neat story behind it. There was a letter in the case that was written by the man who brought it into the family. The man (my wifes great uncle) was a violinist and composer name William Fisher. He performed in southwestern ontario in the mid-1900's. He traded a violin his father made and $25 dollars for the one we have now. It's marked on the inside with the following:

NICOLAUS AMATUS
Cremonen Hieronymi Fil. ac Antonij Nepo Fecit 1651

The story goes on that a doctor once offered $1000 dollars for it and it's value (in 1965) could be 5000-10000. I'm skeptical as to the authenticiy of the piece but after reading all the postings about the Amati violins on your site I'd be interested to hear your comments.
thanks Gordon,

Sincerely,
Joe




Gordon
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02/9/2005
08:34:16
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Joe,

This isn't MY site, but that of Graham Welsh, Ayr in Scotland. I am a visitor here, as are you. My site is HERE.

It would be nice to think that you may have a Nicolo Amati, but somehow I think it is most unlikely.

Most definitely, in the year 1651, Nicolo's tickets ran thus (two lined)...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nicolaus Amatus Cremone
Heironymi filii, fecit An. 1651
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Note, Cremone, not Cremonen, and the full usage of the word 'filii' and no mention of his uncle, Antonio (Antonij), only his father, Girolamo (Hieronymus 1).

The ticket you describe is from much later (the late 1660's) and should be...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nicolaus Amatus Cremonen
Heironymi Fil: ac Antonij Nepos fecit. 166x
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Note the spellings, mine are spot on. it is Nepos, not Nepo, and Cremonen appears on line 1, not line 2. There is a colon after Fil, and fecit is with a lower case 'f'.

The earliest known example of the second ticket, printed on three lines, is 1661. The two-line version appeared c.1666. There is no doubt that in 1651, the first example above was the one being used.

The doctor offering all that money had probably seen the ticket and thought he could work a fast one! To be fair, in 1965, $1,000 for a Nicolo Amati would be laughed at... $20,000 would still have been a snip! He probably was a good doctor, but possibly knew little about violins, apart from 'names', so was willing to take a gamble.

If the violin is what I suspect it to be, I think the doctor should have been allowed to buy it. Wisely invested, that $1,000 could now have been worth $50,000, which is consideably more than I think your violin will be worth.

Basically, if it is not a German trade fiddle from c. 1880 (worth only a few hundred dollars now, maximum), it may be an elaborately faked instrument, which may be worth considerably more (maybe a couple of thousand dollars). I still stand by my 'inconsistent' ticket theory, though, in that it could not be from as early as 1651, and as such is most likely to be a copy or a fake.

If you are still in doubt, please take it to an appraisor, who will tell you that you have a copy, or that you have something worth further investigation. After all, the ticket theory could be shot down in flames as it is based only on the information we have at this time, but new discoveries are highlighted almost daily... that is how we learn, and how we open new doors.

Good luck with it, and my kindest regards,
Gordon


Jack
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03/9/2005
13:44:35
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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A "genuine" Collin-Mezin violin recently sold on eBay for $3100. It had a label inside with a date of 1942. (I am aware that the original Collin Mezzin died circa 1923, and that his son continues to make violin.) France was occupied by the Nazis at this time. To your knowledge, were the violin workshops in occupied France still making violins?


Sidney Costa
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07/9/2005
10:33:29
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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OK. I will probably have a copy of it, but no harm to ask:

Old violin in family. Came from Italy some 80 years ago. Label states:

Nicolaus Amatus fecit
in Cremona 16 24 (24 handwriten).

Even if it is a copy, how much should I sell to keep being honest with my buyer???

Tks for any response


Gordon Burns
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07/9/2005
10:48:50
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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It depends on its quality as to how much it is worth. Some copies are poor and are worth next to nothing, some are very good and will command a good price. You should have your violin appraised to give you an idea of a fair price to deal.

Regards,
Gordon


Sidney Costa
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08/9/2005
22:38:51
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Asking for second time, considering first time question and answer did not appear in this page:

I understand that my Amati violin PROBABLY is a copy, considering my grandfather brought it from Italy around 1930. The Violin is labelled:

Nicolaus Amatus fecit
in Cremona 16 24 (24 in handwriten).

My question is: I intend to sell it and would like to know What would be an HONEST price? Violin is in good shape and conditions.
Tks and Brgds



Gordon Burns
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09/9/2005
00:47:55
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
try refreshing the page to see your reply.


Colin
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10/9/2005
18:18:42
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Back again with a plea by someone who actually plays one of these fiddles: You'll increase the value of the violin, not to mention do a good deed, if you take it to a knowledgeable violin shop and have it overhauled.

Many of the German-made Amatus violins go untouched for years until someone decides to try to play or sell them or give them away, and a lot of things can happen during that time.

My fiddle was given to me by a collector in Arizona; after I had brought it back to the humid East Coast and played it for about a year, it started to sound funny, so I took it to a repair shop.

I found out the bridge had been made wrong, the soundpost was too long, the E string was corroded, the saddle didn't fit right, and the end button was coming out. A lot of this occurred because the fiddle had been in storage so long and was then taken to a different climate and worked. I was also told that the bow it came with, a wooden Japanese bow from the early '50s, was worthless as a working bow and worth only slightly more as an antique.

I ended up putting $160 in repairs into it, plus more for a new chin rest and bow. But now it sounds much better!

The point of the story is that these fiddles are rarely in decent shape when you find them in the attic, even though they may look just fine. Only an expert will be able to identify flaws that can make them unplayable.

Before you list the fiddle on eBay for $1000, or even before you take it to an appraiser, who will charge you money to give his opinion, take it to a really good violin repair place. They will often tell you for free whether it needs significant repairs, how much those repairs would cost, and the general condition of the instrument. (They will not give you an appraisal.)

Whether or not you choose to pay for these repairs yourself, this will put you in a good position to judge its sale-worthiness and will make you appear quite the expert to prospective buyers. And buyers will appreciate being spared the rude awakening that comes from having bought a violin that will cost half again as much to refurbish before it can be used.


Dinha
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24/9/2005
06:51:09
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hi Gordon,
I have a
NICOLAUS AMATUS CREMONEN
HIERONYMI FILIUS ANTONII NEPOS, FECIT 1672
Please send my more information
I want to know the price for this violin
Thanks.
Dinha



Gordon Burns
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24/9/2005
09:26:20
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Dinha,

There is already here a great wealth of information on the maker Nicolo Amati. May I suggest you read through the posts concerning this maker, as just about all that can be said has already been said.

Having said that, yours of course, is a copy, so please don't base your assumption that it will be worth anything like that of an original.

Copies can be worth anything from a few pounds sterling, to a few hundred. Quite rarely, you may come across one worth over a thousand.

Thanks, and regards,
Gordon


Roberto Neeser
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25/9/2005
02:12:25
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Dear Gordon,Good Morning,
we have received your response to our doubts but i would like to know if somebody have something for more than 200 years in the family and the value is only few hundred pounds?
There is with the violin a Pasta/ cera Nicolo Paganni from 1784/1840,The best Violin Rosinin Existence Paganini Mixture,
Made of a Superior Ingredients only World Renowned.
Could an collector in Cremona pay more?I would like to know, Regards, Roberto


Gordon Burns
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25/9/2005
02:23:14
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Forget about the 'bits' in the case - they mean nothing. As far as being in the family for 200 years is concerned, please read previous posts relating to family that lie to us about violin ownership. Also read the posts relating to how you are able to tell a modern violin, from a baroque violin, from a baroque violin converted to a modern setup. Also, read posts relating to 'fake' scroll grafts and 'faked' aging and patina on violins.

If, after reading all those posts (and there are many dozens of them) you still think your violin may be as old as you think, then I suggest you visit Graham's online store, and check out his appraisal and valuation service at fixed price, which being a fixed price represents brilliant value for money if your instrument is valuable, since most appraisors charge a fee fixed to a percentage of the violin's value.

Regards,
Gordon


Saey Danny
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08/10/2005
11:29:59
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Ik kocht onlangs een oude viool in zeer goede staat.
In de romp staat de Nicolas Amatus fesit in Cremona 1640. Achteraan buiten op de romp staat AMATI
Ik geloof niet dat deze viool echt zo oud is maar graag kreeg ik meer uitleg over de maker, de ouderdom van de viool en haar eventuele geschiedenis.


Gordon Burns
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08/10/2005
11:56:33
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Seems like Dutch to me... so if you are are Dutch, chances are you also speak perfect English, so why not give us all a chance to reply to you, by posting in English? OK, persist in Dutch and receive nothing... Post in English and maybe you will receive your answer!

Gordon


Ginny
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13/10/2005
11:25:31
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
I have a violin I am selling for a friend. It states Nicolaus Amtus Fecit in Cremona inside. How can I find out if this is a copy or authentic?
It belonged to my friends grandfather. Her father owned it until he passed away at age 92 in the spring.
Thank you
Ginny


Gordon M Burns
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13/10/2005
11:57:36
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Perhaps I can help you?

It's a copy!

Regards,
Gordon


Ginny
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13/10/2005
12:35:12
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
I emailed you earlier about the value of a violin I am selling for a friend, and I guess I needed to give you more information.
There is a stamp inside that states Nicolas Amati Fecit in Cremona 1663.
Under that it is handwritten rehaired by B.J. Roy May 5th 1910.
It is in pretty bad shape overall.
I highly doubt that it is an original after reading Graham's site.
Thanks again
Ginny


Henry
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03/11/2005
02:13:30
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi, I've read the posts and haven't seen an exact referral to the violin I have. Yes, it's probably a copy but you never know. The ticket reads (and some letters are hard to read being dusty) That being said here goes: 1st line...Antonius Hieronuymus 2nd line...Gremonae Anno 16(15?)80 fecit. Thank you so much for your time.


Gordon M Burns
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03/11/2005
10:40:17
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Henry,

No mention of the surname Amati (Amatus in Latin)? Rest assured, it's a copy, in the same class as the other factory made copies referred to here.

Regards,
Gordon


Henry
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03/11/2005
12:59:37
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Dear Gordon, Thank you so much for the reply about my "Antonius Hieronuymus" violin. There is no mention at all of Amati or Amatus. I would have thought whoever made this copy would not have forgotten the name as a way to increase the value. Or,perhaps,they were just very poor at their art. Any other insights would be appreciated. Regards, Henry


Gordon M Burns
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04/11/2005
00:29:39
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hi Henry,

Often, facsimile tickets were used in these instruments, but often 'mistakes' are present, either by accident, or design. Some 'accidental' mistakes are as a result of the printer of the labels using an alphabet other than Latin, and mistaking one Latin character for another (this was most noticeable in Chinese and Korean instruments). The 'deliberate' mistakes were (as far as my theory goes) an attempt to make it look as if it was by a certain maker, whilst making it clear to the 'expert' that there was no need to look further, i.e. it was telling him that it was a copy without the need to prove or disprove it further. (Like I say, my theory only).

Regards,
Gordon


Marc
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07/11/2005
14:07:27
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Gordon;

Like a lot of people on this site, I also have a Nicolaus Amatus fecit Cremona 16--
and at the handle it says The Chadwick ,London , Violin.
Fake right?


Gordon M Burns
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07/11/2005
18:31:42
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
No, not strictly fake, but definitely copy.

Regards,
Gordon


Jadwiga
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14/11/2005
07:30:35
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Dear Sir,

i have a violin with a two-lines label inside:

Nicolaus Amatus Cremone
Hieronymi filii fecit, An 16 (75 written with ink).

what should i think about it?

thank you in advance :-)
jadwiga


Gordon M Burns
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14/11/2005
09:50:31
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
I can't tell you what to think about it, since your thoughts are your own. I will tell you something about your violin, however. It is a copy.

Regards,
Gordon


Kate
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22/11/2005
14:15:55
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Just interested to find this website - looking for help and advice for how to find another violin to replace the one I bought in a market about 15 years ago, and was interested in all the posts. I understand now that my cheap "Made in Czechoslovakia" Amati copy must have come from that country after 1921. I also think I have read that it is likely it was before the Russian occupation of Czechoslovakia. Does this sound right? I have enjoyed this violin which was not at all bad (teacher's words)and has taken me from beginnerhood on very nicely. I paid about £60 for it I think, and had a little work done to improve the set up. It is a daunting prospect to try to find my next fiddle - I think a path beaten to Ayrshire is going to be the only course after all I have read today!


Gordon M Burns
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22/11/2005
23:50:29
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Nearly right. Made definitely after 1919, and if there is no clue as to the maker, e.g. a name or a factory logo, probably after the Russian occupation (when they enforced communism by sending in the tanks, c.1948). The highest output of Czech violins seems to have been in the 1950s and 1960s.

If you are thinking about buying from Graham, just drop him an email by using the CONTACT page. He'll be pleased to hear from you.

Regards,
Gordon


JWarner
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23/11/2005
09:37:24
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Victor Palumbo:
Todo que puedo decirle despues de muchas de las respuestas mismas aqui es que tu tienes una copia de Amati. Desde que practicamente todos los violines hoy fue hecho in Alemania y otros paises differente que Italia y eran copias de estos que eran reales. En eso caso, tu instrumento no vale mucho, pero si crees que tiene valor tu necessitas mostrarlo a un professional. John


Gordon M Burns
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23/11/2005
09:41:49
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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John,

You continue to astound me! Is this US Spanish, or Spanish Spanish? :o)

Regards,
Gordon


selim
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08/12/2005
20:37:52
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
My grandfather has a violin that says inside
nicolaus amatus fecit ın cremona 16 94(is in handwritıng italic)its in playable condition.

what would be the price range for this violin?



selim
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08/12/2005
20:38:05
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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My grandfather has a violin that says inside
nicolaus amatus fecit ın cremona 16 94(is in handwritıng italic)its in playable condition.

what would be the price range for this violin?



Kinga
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29/12/2005
18:01:05
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Czesc
Ja tez mam w domu skrzypce NICOLAUS AMATUS fecit in cremona 1625.Mam nadzieje,ze sa oryginalne :-)


Gordon M Burns
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30/12/2005
11:18:46
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Dobry vecer Kingo,

Nejspise nemate se opravdovy housle udelal s Nicolasem Amatusem, ale budete mit jeden z mnoho kopi z tento houslar, ktery byl udelan v Nemecko, a snad asi 1880-1900.

Doufam, ze rozumite pokus o cestina.

Na shledanou, a mejte se hezky,
Gordon


mike
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04/1/2006
11:10:15
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
I have read all the postings and I wondering what you might think of a label:

Nicolaus Amatius Cremonien Hiero
nimi filii Antoni Nepos fecitAo.1663

The 63 is hand written. The violin finish has been determined to be over 300 years old.


Gordon M Burns
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04/1/2006
11:38:05
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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What I think? RUBBISH!

What evidence have you that the varnish is over 300 yrs old? If you had any expert evidence, I guess you'd have mentioned it in your post.

The ticket is so totally wrong, and obviously invented to deceive non-Latin speakers... it is a debacle of what the original Latin tickets would have been, i.e.

Nicolaus Amatus Cremonae
Hieronymus et Antonius
Nepos fecit anno 166X

OR

Nicolaus Amatus Cremone
Heironymus filii, fecit An. 165X

By 1663, Type 1 above was in use, without exception.

For your varnish to be over 300 years old, this places it pre-1700. This is a period before the fraudsters and copyists were operating. It therefore places it in with a good chance of being genuine... oh, just one minute, I forgot about the quite obviously faked ticket placed there by an uneducated moron who thought he understood Latin... oh darn! This really does place a spanner well and truly in your works, n'est pas?

So provide the laboratory proof of the 300 yr old varnish, and I'll shoot that down in flames, too!

It is a German factory fiddle from 1880-1900 and worth little. I'll show my bum in my local High Street if I'm wrong!

Regards,
Gordon


Marta
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04/1/2006
13:19:29
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hi Gordon
I have a violin that has the following legend inside:
Vertertigt Von Reinnhold Ge---olni in Austria (we are not sure of the complete legend) and a different way:
Nicolaus Amati
faciebat 16x1
The legend inside is a litle burry, so we don't see more letters.
The luthier that showed it thinks that maybe is a real Amati, and not a copy because he took and compared its measures and were the sames, but we are not sure.
Would you give any help about this? And in case that was a real Amati, how much it cost?


Gordon M Burns
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04/1/2006
13:36:05
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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If the luthier tells you it may be an original Amati, then I am afraid he is an idiot, and doubt that he is anything more than an amateur at best, and a complete and utter numbskull at worst, and should not be entrusted with your fiddle, even to polish it!

Basically, the German reference makes it no way an original. The obvious ruse of trying to Italianise the Surname (whoever Ge---olni was - certainly not in my many books) shows it to be nothing more than a German factory fiddle.

You are right to be 'not sure' and to doubt this utter incompetent's appraisal, because it sounds like you know more than he does!

Please do me a favour, and show this luthier of yours my entry here on the forum. I would really like to hear his response to it!

Don't shoot the messenger, but maybe you should shoot the idiot who pretends to be your luthier?

Best regards,
Gordon


Martha
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04/1/2006
13:40:30
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I have a violin that inside have this legend:
verfertig VON REINHOLD GEIPEL SOHN in Austria,
narch NICOLAUS AMATI
Faciebat 1651
What do you think?


Marta
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04/1/2006
13:50:59
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Thanks a lot for your answer! Even when is sad new! Marta


artur
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06/1/2006
07:36:01
Hermann Trapp cello
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Dear gordon.

I have a different question.I have a hermann trapp cello.It is writen :faciebat anno18..;
BOHEMIA.What do you know about him and his cellos?


Toni
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06/1/2006
08:02:41
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Artur,

I have a Hermann Trapp violin, made in 1883. It's not a particularly valuable violin but apparently "sounds good for its price". If you search these boards for Hermann Trapp you'll find some info on him, as we have discussed him here before.

Cheers,
Toni


artur
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06/1/2006
09:57:33
over h.trapp cello
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what do you think about the price of my Hermann Trapp cello?

thank you for your time!

artur


Gordon M Burns
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06/1/2006
11:25:25
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Artur,

You don't own a Herman Trapp, sad to say. Trapp was born, raised and worked at Markneukirchen, in Saxony, 1855, and was a pupil of Pfretzschner. He stayed in Markneukirchen until 1893, when he moved to Wildstein, which although is quite close to the border with what is now Czech Republic, was (as far as I can tell) never part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and thus never in Bohemia. Certainly, although winning medals in Paris and Prague, he did not work there. This leaves only one option, and that your 'cello is a copy of a Trapp, made in Bohemia, after his death.

Thus, the value will be nothing like that of a genuine Trapp.

We cannot give values on this forum, since to do so with any degree of accuracy, the instrument must be inspected at close quarters and heard to play. This, obviously, is not possible over the Internet.

Regards,
Gordon


selim
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06/1/2006
23:47:06
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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My grandfather has a violin that says inside
nicolaus amatus fecit ın cremona 16 94(is in handwritıng italic)its in playable condition.

what would be the price range for this violin?



Gordon M Burns
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07/1/2006
01:07:31
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Please be kind enough to read the last paragraph of the post above yours.


gina
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11/1/2006
07:12:50
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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I have my Great-Uncle's violin he purchased used in the 1950's. The ticket reads Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1645. I've read the upove page so I know the value of the piece is not extreme, which is not the purpose of this post. The sentimental value far out weighs any monitary value.

My question is this: Just below the fine tuner, on the tail piece, is an inlay design of a red and white flower with two green leaves, a green stem, and two red flower buds not opened. The white portion of the design looks to be mother of pearl. I don't know what the red and green colors are made from. The design starts just under the fine tuner and extends to half way down the tail piece. What is the significance of this? Was it added after it was manufactured by a previous owner to show thier distinct flair for design (or horticulture ha ha)?

The only reason I ask is because no one has made a referrence to it in the above postings.

Thank you for your time and knowledge,
Gina


Toni
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11/1/2006
08:28:36
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Gordon,

Are you sure that Hermann Trapp was copied? I always assumed he was not well known enough / not of a standard high enough to be considered worthy of copying.

My own violin's label says "Hermann Trapp Neukirchen b Eger (Bohemia.) Faciebat anno 1883"

This suggests he was born in Bohemia, although he may never have worked there. What do you think? I'll be quite amused if my own violin turned out to be a fake! :D

Cheers,
Toni


Gordon M Burns
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11/1/2006
11:09:33
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Toni,

Then prepare to be amused! :o)

The information I added was basically from Henley. Jalovec, on the other hand, doesn't list him in "German and Austrian Violin Makers" which, if he was a Czech maker, I find an odd omition by a Czech researcher. However, I do not own the "Jalovec Encyclopaedia" or "Violin Makers of Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia" so if he was a Czech maker, he may be listed as such in one of these.

If this is the case, I sincerely apologise for any misleading information I may have given, through believing (once again) the jottings of William Henley.

Now I bet that put a smile on your face, Toni!

Best regards,
Gordon


Toni
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11/1/2006
12:14:03
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Gordon,

It's amusing cos I would never have thought him worthy of copying...I've never found much info about him at all, whereas other makers who have been copied tend to be extremely well-known. All other "Hermann Trapp" violin labels that I have found info about do have (Bohemia) on them, and I took this one at face value. I mean, they never seem to command high prices or anything. I'd probably have suspected it was a fake if the real ones went for thousands!

The "Hermann Trapp" label is actually stuck over another label that appears to be a Strad label (I can just make out the A/S in a cross device because one corner of the top label is lifting slightly). Hermann Trapp did used to make Strad copies and he would stick both his own label and a fake-Strad label in his instruments.....so this means the copyist would have stuck TWO false labels in this violin. That's definitely amusing :D

It's a shame though, if it is a copy, in that I now don't have much of an idea of where my little violin came from (a German fiddle factory I guess? aww, the poor thing!). I did like to ponder about its heritage, and about all the different hands it's been through before reaching me. Probably just girlish fancy, but hey :)

At least I know my other violin - a "Paolo Fiorini" - is a factory fiddle (albeit a jolly good one). That's in Henley and I have the original certificate from Beare & Son, and my grandfather bought it new from the music shop who had it from Beare's.

Aww, my poor little "Trapp"! I'll have to have it appraised sometime, in case anyone can tell me more about it :)

Thanks Gordon! Have you ever come across a real or fake Trapp, that you can remember?

Cheers!
Toni




Gordon M Burns
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11/1/2006
12:33:10
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Toni,

Don't despair - as I said above, it seems I may be quite wrong quoting Mr Henley. I never connected the idea that the reason he wasn't in my Jalovec was because he wasn't German. As you know, in Schonbach area of western Bohemia, there are many people with distinclty German names and not at all Czech-sounding. Trapp may be an example of one such resident, and it could be that Henley got it wrong (not for the first time).

In the violin world, anything goes, and it is often more fruitful to fake a lesser maker than a better known one, simply because you probably have more of a chance of getting away with it, since nobody really scrutinises it and it is taken at face value. If Trapp won medals at Paris and Prague, you can bet he knew how to turn out a good fiddle (that's not to say that ALL his fiddles were so good, though, just that those entered for the prize were good).

I'd love to find out what you turn up, if anything, Toni.

Kindest regards,
Gordon


Toni
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11/1/2006
13:11:31
Fake Hermann Trapp violin?
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Message:
Hiya Gordon,

I've been researching the "Neukirchen b. Eger" bit, and have discovered the following:

Eger is a town in the Czech Republic that lies close to the German border. Since 1945 it has been known by its Czech name of Cheb. Years ago it was the centre of the German-speaking area called the Egerlandes.

The musical instrument making centre of Markneukirchen lies a very short distance over the border in Germany.It really is very, very close by.

Neukirchen is the German name for a place called Novy Kostel, and is within the locality of Cheb. I had always assumed that "Neukirchen" was the same place as "Markneukirchen", which was possibly a bit ignorant of me....however, maybe Henley himself made a similar mistake, in assuming that Trapp was born and raised in Markneukirchen?

I wasn't actually aware of the Schonbach area so I have learned something today! :) Geographically, it certainly looks plausible that Hermann Trapp could have come from Eger in Bohemia to work in Markneukirchen. What do you think?

I do hope you're not grinding your teeth and thinking I'm yet another one who doesn't want to face the fact she's got a fake fiddle - but I think you know me well enough by now to know that I am genuinely interested in the history instead of having pound signs flashing in my eyes at the thought of owning a "genuine" and "valuable" violin! :D

Cheers,
Toni





Toni
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13/1/2006
02:13:07
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Just bumping this in case Gordon hasn't spotted it. I see you're aware of Neukirchen as you mentioned it in another thread - was this a well-known town for instrument making too?

Cheers for picking your brains! :)

Toni


Gordon M Burns
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13/1/2006
02:36:19
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Toni,

I misread Henley (maybe I was tired)! On checking again, it reads Neukirchen, therefore Novy Kostel in Bohemia. It all now fits into place, and the reason Jalovec doesn't mention him in German & Austrian Violin Makers, is that he wasn't German... doh! I must have been tired to have missed that obvious chestnut!

Cheb is certainly a historical making centre, and so are the outlying towns. It seems there were many makers based in and around the Egerlands and the Sudetenlands, places such as Schonbach, Cheb, Luby, et al.

See! I do get things wrong and am always open to correction... thanks for the wake-up call, Toni :o)

Best regards,
Gordon


Toni
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13/1/2006
04:38:34
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hiya Gordon,

Thanks for clarifying that! No worries, it's an easy mistake to make - I'd assumed they were the same place! So my violin was probably made by Hermann Trapp after all? :D It is nice to think of an individual making it, rather than a number of anonymous hands in a workshop. I'll look into getting it appraised by a luthier in the next month or so (once my finances have recovered from Christmas, heh) because it would be interesting to get a professional opinion on how to improve its tone etc.

Cheers,
Toni



Denis
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15/1/2006
12:13:59
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hello, I'm now one of the thousands of people
who have emailed you about owning a
Nicolaus Amatus violin. I only email about
mine because the entire label is printed (no
handwriting) and does not have a country of
origin, and I haven't seen an email about one
of those. Could easily have missed it though.
The label, says, "Nicolaus Amatus fecit in
Cremona 1645". In the upper right hand
corner it has an upside down, reversed "L"
shaped mark which, since I'm in printing
recognize as a positional mark. There is a
slight portion of the upper left one there. The
ones in the other two corners are missing.
There are no other marks on the instrument
that I can find. My guess is that since "in" is
English it's not original.
I don't care about the value. It was my
grandfather's and he played it for us when we
were kids, and when my dad was a kid. I just
want to play it myself.
Thanks!


Gordon M Burns
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15/1/2006
12:36:20
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hi Denis,

The printers registration marks are a dead giveaway of it being a facsimile ticket; in 1645 printers weren't using registration marks - it was all block-printed on a piece of paper, then cut out by hand. The word 'in' is not just English, but Latin, too.

Regards,
Gordon


Denis
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15/1/2006
23:54:12
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Good morning, Gordon.
Thanks for taking the time to answer, I appreciate it! I wondered about those registration marks! I didn't realize that "in" was English as well as Latin. You learn something every day. That it doesn't have a country of origin, does that mean it's possibly an older violin?
Thanks!
Denis


Gina
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16/1/2006
02:14:20
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Message:
I have my Great-Uncle's violin he purchased used in the 1950's. The ticket reads Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1645. I've read the upove page so I know the value of the piece is not extreme, which is not the purpose of this post. The sentimental value far out weighs any monitary value.

My question is this: Just below the fine tuner, on the tail piece, is an inlay design of a red and white flower with two green leaves, a green stem, and two red flower buds not opened. The white portion of the design looks to be mother of pearl. I don't know what the red and green colors are made from. The design starts just under the fine tuner and extends to half way down the tail piece. What is the significance of this? Was it added after it was manufactured by a previous owner to show thier distinct flair for design (or horticulture ha ha)?

The only reason I ask is because no one has made a referrence to it in the above postings.

Thank you for your time and knowledge,
Gina



Toni
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16/1/2006
03:05:19
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Hi Gina,

It's unlikely that there is any significance in this - it's just a decorative tailpiece. Inlaid fittings like this were popular in late Victorian times.

Hope that helps!

Regards,
Toni




Gina
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16/1/2006
07:01:00
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:

Thank you Toni!

I'm just beginning to learn how to play. I suppose my ignorance is showing. I haven't even been able to play my uncle's instrument yet...I'm currently deployed in Iraq and am using an inexpensive one to learn on while I'm here. I can't wait to put nice strings on his to hear what it sounds like!

I've fallen in love (with the violin)! Such a beautiful discovery that has brought so much happiness to me here!

Thanks again,
Gina


Toni
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16/1/2006
07:31:25
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hi Gina,

It's great hear that you're learning the violin! I am a learner myself (have just gone back to lessons after years of just messing about on my own) and I love it. Good luck with it and let us know how you get on! There are great forums for people learning instruments, at the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music website (forums.abrsm.org), I can recommend them.

Also, good luck in Iraq!

Cheers,
Toni


Tim
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16/1/2006
09:57:24
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
my grandfather's violin has the following information........based on all the emails preceeding on this site, I assume it too is another German made copy...........any reply would be appreciated..........

E K Dresden stamped on wood

label: Meister Geige copy of Nicolas Amati
and made by Ernst Kreusler....Sachsen

thanks for any info you can provide.........regards


han
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16/1/2006
10:23:47
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
is there a way to get off of the reply list on this forum? i keep getting emails from this site saying that i have a reply to the message.. the message that i posted a couple months back...


Gordon M Burns
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16/1/2006
11:33:21
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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If you return via the link in the email you receive, then just post a blank message, making sure you check the radio button NO, you should not receive any more.

Gordon


Gordon M Burns
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16/1/2006
12:00:48
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hi Tim,

At last, someone with a fiddle that declares it is from Saxony! This places yours pre-1900 but probably post c.1891. I refer you to the McKinley Tariff Act of the USA, which specified that all imports to the US must have the country of origin stated, in English. This is the ONLY reason the Germans started to state this information, running scared of losing out on a very important market. Thus, we can pin yours down to just a few years (after c.1900, the word Germany would have replaced Sachsen, upon the unification of the German State.

However, the name 'Kreusler' does not feature in either Henley or Jalovec, pointing to the possibility that this maker's name was a figment of the imagination of some anonymous German fiddle factory, or that the make was real, but that his output was so small or not of sufficient quality to make him worthy of a mention.

Sorry, but that's all the information I can feed you.

Best regards,
Gordon


Jamie
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16/1/2006
12:32:59
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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What a lot of messages! Gordon, how on earth do you ever find time to reply to them all!?!I would love to take up just a little more of your time to ask how a Amati CAN actually be identified, what are the irrefutable signs of them being genuine? I jesli wolno spytac, tez skad tak dobrze mowisz po czeski?
Regards,
jamie


Gordon M Burns
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16/1/2006
13:12:54
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Dobry vecer,

mluvim česky, ale nemluvim polsky :o)

The identification of an original cannot be laid down in words on a forum such as this. It is all to do with seeing the instrument, getting a feel for it, measuring it, examining it closely with regards to measurements, arching, blocking, lining, overall modelling, scroll, corners, purfling, etc. It is to do with assessing these objectives in a professional environment - a personal knowledge kind of thing - an acquired skill arrived at through many devoted years of studying and examining the real thing (genuine instruments); having first made, and then cultivated the contacts necessary to have the originals available - through having a library of reference worth many thousands of pounds...

Basically, if I told you, I'd be slitting my own wrists! I am sure you can see what I mean!

Regards,
Gordon


HENRY LANG
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18/1/2006
02:21:52
RE: NICOLAUS AMATI
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Message:
I HAVE A VIOLIN ,IT HAS A LABLE INSIDE READING ,NICOLAUS AMATI CREMONO FECIT ANNO 1677 ANY INFORMATION WOULD BE APPRECIATED


Tiffany
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18/1/2006
22:33:39
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
I just realised that my old violin teacher ripped me off!!!! I have a violin that was last played in the 1960s and it has a label in it that says,

"Copie de Nicolaus Amatus Cremoniea Hieronimi filius Antoni Nepos fecit 1676"

nothing mispelt..the "er" part of the Hieronimi in the label seems to be scratched..so you can see the small bit of the label being pushed that its kinda of a little scrunched up..but you can still see that its "Hieronimi"

I saw a post in this board that they are worth from a few pounds sterling to a few hundred pounds (so...200 pounds max?) and rarely over a few thousands...

my violin teacher sold this violin this me, without chin rest, without strings..for 2600 POUNDS..so she ripped me off??!!


aurelie
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20/1/2006
03:11:54
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hi!!
I have read all messages and I don't know what to think about my violon that was given to me by my grandmother.

My violin has two-lines label inside:

Nicolaus Amatus Cremone (with another stange letter e after Cremone)
Hieronymi filii fecit. An 16(51 written in italic).

It was restored 15 years ago and the luthier said it was a violin with value.
What do you think about it? Is my violin true or fake?

Thanks for an answer,
Aurelie.





Gordon M Burns
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20/1/2006
03:15:26
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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They all have value! Whether that value is a few pounds or a few thousands, that's where the question sits. Please refer to my post 'Have you hit the jackpot' to get some idea of reality.

Gordon


Dennis
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20/1/2006
17:06:35
Hermann Geipel Strad Copy
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I have a Hermann Geipel Strad Copy . Looking for any info. It was made from Sears Roebuck # 141 Can you tell me what year it is and approximatly what the value would be. It is in excellent shape. Thanks for any info on my Hermann Geipel

Dennis


Josh Williams
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01/2/2006
02:50:50
Antonius Fischer 1865
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Message:
I need some help in figuring this out. We just bought this violin at a estate sale. It is in rough shape, this is what it says inside: (where the ? mark is, there should be a letter, but I can't make out what it is)

Antonius Fischer ?lumsuis Ludvioce
Bausch Sin Fecit Schonbach Anno 1865

955 on a red & white sticker inside.
What does it mean, and is it worth anything?

Thank you all very much for your time,

Josh akshner@ptd.net

Col. Kirk's Auction Gallery


Gordon M Burns
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01/2/2006
03:19:13
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
The only Anton Fischer based in Shcobach worked in that town between 1890 and 1914. He had nothing to do with Ludwig Bausch of Dresden (the word of which you are unsure is possibly 'alumnus', meaning he studied under). Since it is dated well before the time that Fischer entered the world, the ticket is spurious, or suspicious, to say the least.

Henley grades Fischer's instruments as 'average style of Bohemian trade instruments', which in effect means 'factory-made, production-line fiddles intended for the less discerning masses', so this possibly explains the spurious mention of Ludwig Bausch, and the date - he was lying to make his fiddles seem more appealing.

I hope you didn't pay too much for it, especially if it's in 'rough shape'. If you ask me, a 'rough shape' fiddle of this class is worth maybe $10 US as a source of old repair wood.

Regards,
Gordon


vlado
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01/2/2006
04:18:44
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hi, I have a violin that the label says "Nicolas Amatus fecit in Cremona 1680". How can one tell if a violin an autentic. Thanks for your information.


Vlado
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01/2/2006
04:43:43
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Sory, the label says "Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1680"

Kind regards,
Gordon



Gordon M Burns
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01/2/2006
10:58:41
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
You can tell by reading some of the messages appearing on this forum, especially one on the first page, titled "Did I win the Jackpot?"

Regards,
Gordon


Serge
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04/2/2006
08:15:27
Ciarma Nazzareno
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Message:
Hi, I have an authentic

Ciarma Nazzareno fu Domenico 1902
Ascoli Piceno

I know it is not a copy because my grampa bought it at Ascoli Piceno about that time directly to the maker.

My father pleyed it until he died three years ago at 99 years of age.

The violin is not in good shape and need repairs.

I would like to know if it has some reasonable value.

Thank you,
Serge


Lyndon J Taylor
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04/2/2006
19:42:16
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Quality turn of the century genuine Italian violins are going roughly $10,000-$50,000 in todays market, it takes about one hundred years for a violin to blossom into a real antique, and the better Italian violins are doing very well appreciating in todays market, sincerely Lyndon J Taylor violinljt@hotmail.com


vlado
Guest
 Email

05/2/2006
07:09:58
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
IP: Logged

Message:

Hallo Gordon!

Last time I haven't sent you enough informations about my violin to answer if the violin is authentic.So, I am sending you more.
The violin has all the attributes of an old violin, all those that are written on that forum, like:
- it is completely hand-made (visual)
- the length of outside is 365mm
- complete length is 600m
- other sizes of violin (168,108,209)
- front side is colored in darker golden brown color ( regular years)
- sounder is embossed
- the tick of sounder: Up: 2-2,5mm; In the middle: 2,5mm; Down 3,0mm
- Length of “f” is cca. 72mm (from inside)
- Tick of the violin (from side): Up:29mm; I the middle:29mm, Down:30mm
- Back side is handmade colored golden brown (marmoral cut)
- There two trianglical bolts on the back side of violin
- On the front side and back side there are darker dots under the varnish, that is probably because of an old type of drying before the work ( drying with lime in the dirt)
- The varnish is warm by touch
- In inside is a small paper “Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 16 80”
- All the letters in the paper with in the number 16 are impressed handly
- The letters that are: “a”, “e”, “i”, “u”, “c”, “s”, are different shapes
- the last two numbers “80” are written handly with bigger ink (black color)

Please give me more précised explanation.
In the end a question who should I ask about the expertise and appraisement of my violin? (Specialist’s appraisal-expertise)

Sincerely, Vlado




Gordon M Burns
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05/2/2006
12:43:07
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Message:
Hi Vlado,

It doesn't sound to me to be an original. There are many thousands of copies in circulation, some good and some pretty bad. You should look for an appraisor who can tell you what you have. Try Yellow Pages, or Google search engine to find one near you.

Sincere regards,
Gordon


Kayla
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06/2/2006
11:55:11
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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My Step dad has an old violin or fiddle and we are trying to look up info on it, his great grandfather gave it to him. We would like to know any information on it.

Nicolaus Amatus fecit incremona 1634


Gordon M Burns
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06/2/2006
11:58:04
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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Please read the foregoing messages, and other numerous messages on this forum relating to this maker, and you'll find out all you need to know, and much more that you never thought possible.

Thank you.
Gordon


Rata Alberta Diana
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12/2/2006
22:12:47
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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i have one violin of Nicolaus Amatus fecit. in Cremona 1617 and i would like to sell it . for further information mail me at this adresse : albertina_4u@yahoo.com


Gordon M Burns
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12/2/2006
23:45:30
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PLEASE DON'T ATTEMPT TO SELL INSTRUMENTS ON THIS FORUM.

THANK YOU!


Rata Alberta Diana
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16/2/2006
21:05:16
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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ok... i`m sorry.. but can you give me some information about this violin (Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona anno 1617) does it have any value?? is it a copy? and please can you tell me where i could sell it? Thank you !


Gordon M Burns
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17/2/2006
03:36:49
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It will be a copy, based on the original, probably German in origin, factory produced, and if you take a look at eBay you'll see what similar ones are selling for there. eBay is probably a reasonable place to sell yours, as German factory fiddles don't seem to do too badly there.


Rata Alberta Diana
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17/2/2006
06:35:07
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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ok.. i`m sorry .. but can you give me some information about this violin (Nicolaus Amatus fecit. in Cremona 1617) .. aproximately what is its value?? where could i sell it?? THANK YOU !


Gordon M Burns
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17/2/2006
10:33:04
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Message already answered. Please look for it above!


Mary Beth Eaton
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17/2/2006
18:06:57
RE: Nicolaus Amatus
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My father(70 years old) has a violin that he had received from his great-grandfather Wonderly (originally believed to be Wunderlich) and probably came from Germany. On the inside is a paper which states "Nicolaus Amatus fecit in Cremona 1645" the violin is a well worn. Anyway, my father has offered this violin to my son and before he accepts it I want to make sure that the value of it is not so great that it is unrealistic for the use of a teenager.
Mary Beth


Gordon M Burns
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17/2/2006
20:13:25
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No, it will be fine for your teenager.


Graham Welsh
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20/2/2006
21:32:40
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PLEASE NOW USE THE NEW FORUM. MESSAGES HERE ARE NO LONGER SEEN BY ME AND THE MAJORITY OF VISITORS. FIND THE NEW BOARD HERE.

It's easy to use just register your details, remembering to add your location please.


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